Understanding Sexual Trauma and Hookup Culture in Therapy with Gay Men: An Interview with Michael Pezzullo, LMFT
Curt and Katie chat with Michael Pezzullo, LMFT, about providing affirming and trauma-informed therapy for gay men. We explore common misconceptions therapists hold, the complexities of hookup culture, and how sexual trauma often shows up in subtle and misunderstood ways. We also look at how clinicians can better navigate issues of consent, drug use, and boundary violations when working with this population.
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Transcript
(Show notes provided in collaboration with Otter.ai and ChatGPT.)
An Interview with Michael Pezzullo, LMFT
Michael Pezzullo is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. He earned his Master’s Degree in Clinical Psychology from Antioch University. Michael works in private practice in West Hollywood, CA. He specializes in LGBTQ+ affirmative psychotherapy, substance use disorders and trauma. He practices EMDR, ketamine assisted psychotherapy and IFS.
Michael Pezzullo is a licensed psychotherapist in private practice. He specializes in gay men, trauma, EMDR and substance use disorders. He offers sessions in person in West Hollywood, and virtually throughout CA and FL. To learn more, you can book a complementary consultation through his website.
In this podcast episode, we explore affirming, trauma-informed therapy for gay men
We invited Michael Pezzullo to the podcast to discuss the often-overlooked nuances of working with gay men in therapy. From hookup culture to sexual trauma, Michael breaks down what therapists need to understand to avoid causing harm or misinterpreting client behavior. His perspective emphasizes the importance of clinical humility, cultural knowledge, and a collaborative approach.
Common Therapist Mistakes When Working with Gay Men
“I think there are just some basic experiences that gay men go through that someone may not be aware of. I think you can be an extremely informed ally and be an incredibly effective clinician, but there are some basic things I think that do need to be addressed. For example, you know, the hookup culture…you just want to be aware of some of the common things that go on, so that when you hear them, you don’t think it’s abnormal.” – Michael Pezzullo, LMFT
- Therapists can unintentionally pathologize behaviors common in the gay community.
- Misinterpreting app-based hookup culture or assuming risky behavior where there may be none
- Projecting shame or judgment on sexual practices without understanding context
- Failing to ask nuanced questions that reflect the lived realities of gay clients
- Michael encourages therapists to be curious, not presumptive, and to recognize that what may seem “risky” or “unhealthy” must be explored collaboratively with the client.
What Therapists Need to Understand About Hookup Culture, Risk, and Drug Use
- Michael dives into the different types of hookup apps and the language (including coded terms) used to signal preferences, drug use, or consent.
- He outlines how certain substances like GHB and methamphetamine intersect with hookup culture—and why therapists need to be informed, not alarmed.
- Therapists should approach sexual health conversations without judgment and understand the difference between normative behaviors in the community and those that may indicate trauma or risk.
Addressing Sexual Trauma and Boundary Violations in the Gay Community
Sexual trauma among gay men is common but often overlooked—both culturally and clinically.
- Michael discusses how boundary violations may be normalized or minimized
- Gay men may resist identifying as victims due to shame or societal disbelief
- Therapists must be gentle, patient, and thorough in helping clients understand their experiences
He stresses that taking a full sexual history is essential but must be done with sensitivity and a trauma-informed approach.
Helping Gay Men in Building and Enforcing Boundaries
“I am a strong proponent of not just setting boundaries, but guarding your boundaries, because I think boundaries are useless if you don’t actually enforce them.” – Michael Pezzullo, LMFT
- Helping clients recognize and enforce their boundaries is a core component of Michael’s work.
- Many clients haven’t been taught how to set boundaries
- Therapists can model and reinforce boundary-setting in a non-punitive way
- Understanding consequences and context helps clients build sustainable skills
- Michael also describes how internalized shame can make boundary enforcement particularly difficult—and how a trusting therapeutic relationship can support this work over time.
Navigating Presenting, Shame, and the “Velvet Rage”
Michael discusses how some gay men cope with internal shame by becoming “high-functioning” or performing perfection.
- Presenting well can mask distress
- Therapists need to dig deeper beyond appearances
- The therapeutic process should allow clients to remove the armor they’ve built
- This dynamic often stems from early rejection or shame and requires long-term, relational work.
Creating a Safe and Affirming Space for Gay Clients
Michael shares a personal example of a therapist who made space for his identity without assumptions—simply by asking intentional, curious questions. He emphasizes:
- The need for culturally attuned, affirming practices
- Avoiding projection or assumptions about identity and experience
- Therapists doing their own internal work around biases and beliefs
Using Social Media and Influencers as Cultural Education
- Therapists can benefit from engaging with gay influencers and online communities to better understand cultural dynamics.
- Social platforms can provide unfiltered access to the lived experiences, language, and humor of gay men, which helps therapists become better cultural witnesses—not experts, but informed allies.
Therapist Takeaways from this podcast episode
- Get informed about hookup culture, drug use, and the language used in the gay community
- Approach conversations about sex and trauma without judgment or assumption
- Take time to build trust and help clients explore boundaries and shame
- Use curiosity and cultural humility to inform your clinical approach
- Don’t rely on clients to be your cultural educators—seek out resources proactively
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:
We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Michael’s website: https://www.michaelpezzullo.com
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:
What Therapists Need to Know to Support the Trans Community: An interview with Artie Hartsell
Understanding Polyamory: An Interview with Dana McNeil, LMFT
Bi+ Erasure, An Interview with Dr. Mimi Hoang, Ph.D.
Sex and Shame, An interview with Eliza Boquin, LMFT
Meet the hosts:
Curt Widhalm, LMFT
Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note:
Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
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Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):
Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).
… 0:00
(Opening Advertisement)
Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 0:12
Welcome back, modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy, and this is the podcast for therapists about the things that go on in our world, the things that go on with our professions, the ways that we can serve some of our clients better. And we are always happy to have guests on who are able to talk about populations and clientele that Katie and I don’t normally work with or aren’t major parts of our practices. And so we are joined today by Michael Pezzullo. He’s an MFT and helping us to learn more about working with gay men in practices. So thank you very much, and I’m looking forward to talking about this more. I know that our practices are not far apart. You’re over in West Hollywood. I’m in the valley in West LA. We’ve got some overlap in our clientele. So always love to learn more from people who know more than me. So thank you for joining us.
Michael Pezzullo 0:21
Thank you for having me.
Katie Vernoy 0:40
Yeah, I’m excited about this conversation too, but before we get into it, I want to ask you the question we ask all our guests, which is, who are you and what are you putting out into the world?
Michael Pezzullo 1:22
Yeah, so, so I’m Michael Pezzullo. I have a private practice in West Hollywood, but I also see people remotely throughout California and also Florida now as well. I do some coaching internationally also, but what I put out into the world is I do a lot of work with gay men, and gay men’s issues and sexual trauma has become one of the most prevalent things I’ve seen in my practice, which is why it’s become something I talk about pretty frequently.
Curt Widhalm 1:48
So we start a lot of our episodes with a question that comes not from a shaming place, but a if people are already making mistakes, let’s help them not make mistakes. If gay men come into their practice, what did most therapists get wrong when working with gay men?
Michael Pezzullo 2:04
That’s a great question, and I think it’s all about, right, like helping each other, not about, you know, our mistakes are not to be shamed, but they’re to be worked on. We’re all work in progress, and we’re constantly learning, and that’s just the name of the game, right? We’re working with human behavior and the human mind. It’s going to be endlessly evolving. So, I would say a couple things. I think there are just some basic experiences that gay men go through that someone may not be aware of. I think you can be an extremely informed ally and be an incredibly effective clinician, but there are some basic things I think that do need to be addressed. For example, you know, the hookup culture right now in the gay community is very app focused, but in a little bit of a different way than it is in, you know, the I don’t want to say the straight community, but, you know, non gay male, so you just want to be aware of some of the common things that go on, so that when you hear them, you don’t think it’s abnormal. I think that’s the mistake that I hear more often is that a gay man will discuss sexual practice or sexual behavior that’s extremely normal, and the therapist will clock it as being off when it’s actually not.
Curt Widhalm 3:12
I think you need to expand more on this.
Michael Pezzullo 3:14
Yes, no problem. For example, so if you have a client, for example, who is in a city alone, and they go to a bathhouse, for example, that could easily be taken as like a, you know, oh, wow, that’s a more unusual kind of extreme thing to do. Where, in the community of gay men, it’s not or, for example, like going on a hookup app and meeting up with someone and having, you know, unprotected sex, because you assume that they’re taking PrEP already, or that they are HIV positive, they’re undetectable, stuff like that. I’ve seen, you know, straight clinicians clock that as being something concerning or just out of the ordinary when it actually isn’t. It’s a common behavior.
Katie Vernoy 4:01
It’s interesting, because I know for myself, I’ve had some gay men clients who’ve talked about some of these things, and I’ve not clocked them as abnormal. But I think it is hard to know what is truly risky, what is normal but also has some risk involved, and what is just totally normal and not a risk at all. Because to me, there’s, you know, I’m I’m an old married lady, and so I have a very different lifestyle than even the hookup culture. And so when we’re talking about those things, and then also potentially sexual trauma due to some of the risks that can be taken with some of these hookup aps, they think it can be hard to sort through it. So can you talk us through how to sort through what’s risky, what’s normal, what’s normal and risky? You know, how should we clock it? I guess is really the question I’m trying to get to.
Michael Pezzullo 4:52
Yeah, absolutely. So what I would say is that, you know, being a gay man on a hookup app, if you’re not on a hookup app, you’re probably not breathing like that’s just where you’re gonna be. But within that realm, there are different apps. So there’s like Grindr, and there’s Scruff, and then there’s also like BBRT and Sniffies. There’s a range in the terrain that’s good to know about where some apps are used much more for lots of talking and exchanging pictures and verifying. And some are much more immediate hookup I don’t really care who this is, what my safety is, and so on and so forth. And some apps lean in different directions. So kind of what you’re looking for, you may be on one or the other. So I think being on hookup apps in general is part of the world. Same thing with going to clubs or bath houses where there’s sex going on, doesn’t necessarily mean someone’s participating, but if they’re going, I would say that’s extremely normal and sort of par for the course for culture. But to your point, though, of assessing risk, I think when that gets into the realm of drug use, if people are doing meth, if people are doing hard drugs, and that’s probably the drug you’re gonna see the most. Actually, a lot of gay men use Hoppers and GHB when they’re having sex, which, you know, sort of debatable about how healthy that can be, but it’s can be used more in moderation. But there are, there are lines that start to get drawn, I think particularly when you get into the harder drugs that you see a lot on these apps as well.
Katie Vernoy 6:26
So there’s the risk with drug use and where that can kind of get out of control. There’s also risk of sexual assault.
Michael Pezzullo 6:33
Yes, yes, absolutely. And I think what I’ve seen too, is that those two things go together pretty strongly as well. That when you are going into an environment where there is rampant drug use, particularly drugs like meth, that increase, you know, libido astronomically and lead to people behaving in sexual ways that they wouldn’t normally, that the ability to give consent gets lost, and the people that you’re surrounding yourself with, potentially may not be interested in obtaining consent in the first place. So, and these are two very different experiences, I think, if you talk to most gay men you know, I guess, who are of a certain age, of late 20s, early 30s, at a certain point, start to become aware of knowing which kind of hookup is going to be risky and which one is not.
Katie Vernoy 7:27
How is that assessment done? Which hookup is going to be risky and which one’s not?
Michael Pezzullo 7:31
Yeah, it’s done on the apps. So it’s done by getting clear photos. Some people that want to do drugs and party will say it. They’ll put it out there. There’s like symbols they’ll put, like diamond emojis in their name or in the conversation to indicate like a crystal or like a smoke, to indicate that they want to do drugs with you. So some people will tell you, but there is almost like a vernacular and a code that you become familiar with pretty quickly to assess same thing, like with, I think any kind of digital safety these days, right? When you’re on the internet, you can kind of sense kind of quickly if you’re on Instagram, even like, is this account a real person, or is this a bot? You can get a sense of like, how safe is this person I’m interacting with. Those sorts of things come into the conversations on these hook up apps as well.
Curt Widhalm 8:19
In the larger gay community with some of this risk for non consensual sex, or sex that becomes more aggressive than is primarily agreed to. How is that dressed in the the larger social context? I think that it’s one thing when we’re looking at this in kind of a one on one situation, but I’m sure that within social groups, even within the community, how is this looked at and either supported or just kind of pushed away?
Michael Pezzullo 8:52
It’s a good question. I think that there are certain spaces that gay men occupy that are less boundaried, where, when you walk in, you’re almost giving, like this implicit permission that I am sort of consenting to something, or I’m sort of not saying it’s a little bit vague. And so what I talk a lot about with people that I work with, especially if they’ve been through sexual trauma before, is going into those places I do think that you’re giving this sort of subtle invitation that something is probably all right with me, and I haven’t defined it yet, and it’s almost like I’m saying yes until I say no, rather than the other way around. So I think it’s really important to have those conversations with people and let them know what they’re walking into, because I’ve seen people just get surprised. They go into, you know, they go into a bathhouse, they go into a like a festival. It’s very sex heavy. They go into a sex party, something like that. And they’re taken aback by how little their boundaries are respected or even acknowledged at all.
… 9:57
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Curt Widhalm 9:57
I imagine for a lot of clinicians, and especially within larger discussions around privilege and that kind of stuff, that some of the concerns brought in by gay men might be minimized just by the fact that they’re men and by being victimized on this, I’m wondering what kinds of themes as you’re nodding aggressively to me admit question here. I’m wondering what kinds of themes that you end up hearing from some of your clients that can speak especially to this and the kind of work that you do.
Michael Pezzullo 10:29
Absolutely, this is something that catches my attention a lot. I think that, you know, in our culture, we’re not very sympathetic to men in general, in a lot of these ways. You know, were viewed as the problem, not as having problems or suffering from problems in a lot of spaces. And I think that shows up for gay men as well, that it goes contrary to a lot of these ideas about gay men. We’ve been socialized to believe that they can be victimized, especially if you’re willingly going to a hyper sexual party or event or whatever it is, or you’re getting on an app that it doesn’t look like a clean victim, for lack of a better term. And I think that’s a problem we have in our culture, in general, is not viewing men with a certain amount of sympathy and compassion that we deserve. I think it’s getting better, but I think it’s that’s something that’s like, pretty universal that I’ve seen.
Katie Vernoy 11:24
So when your client feels victimized, they feel that their boundaries not only weren’t respected, you know, as they were entering into something, but that if they actually set a strong boundary, said no, removed consent, and it was not respected, when we get to that spot where they have been sexually assaulted and are facing this bias that ‘well, of course, I couldn’t be a victim,’ and potentially even ‘you should have known’ ‘this is the culture,’ or you know ‘you were supposed to set up these permissions and consents ahead of time,’ it feels like it would be very hard for a gay man to come in and say, I’ve been victimized, and to speak to someone who has this assumption that they knew the risk, they took the risk, they you know, somehow either misinterpreted or it’s kind of that blaming the victim thing that I think happens a lot of the time. And so when a gay man comes into your practice, and that’s what they’re talking about, they’re saying, I was sexually assaulted, and it destroyed me. How would that work look different than working with anyone else who’s had sexual assault?
Michael Pezzullo 12:35
So I would say that more often than not, they won’t come in and say it that way. The information will come out very slow, and they’ll usually be very hesitant to label themselves as a victim in any way, because of how like, ashamed they feel about the experience. So I think what happens more often then not actually, is that, as a therapist, you start to clock it, that something you know wrong happened, there was some sort of violation, and you have to tread very lightly to let them know that that happened, and to see how they can digest that. What I experience more often than not, is I hear something that sounds like abuse to me, and they’re phrasing it as though it was okay, and starting to tread into that world of is it possible that this was violating in a way that’s hard to name, and often that there’s a lot of resistance to that too, of not wanting to feel like a victim, or not wanting to feel like, you know, I couldn’t have done something differently or or something along those lines, that’s what I see more often than not.
Curt Widhalm 13:39
Are there other signs that end up giving indications around this? Such as the way that people talk about some of their non sexual relationships, and some of the ways that people who’ve been victims or people who’ve been the targets of some of this kind of assaults end up attaching to other people, either within their community or on the other end of things, just completely kind of isolating.
Michael Pezzullo 14:05
I think, you know, one thing that’s so important to do with I think any client, specifically gay men, when you’re working with them, is getting a thorough sexual history, just like you get a family history, but really going through the details. Because, you know, I know generations, it’s changed quite a lot. Like Gen Z gay man, versus millennial gay man, you know, millennial is so different versus Gen X. Like our community is interesting in the sense of things have changed so rapidly. So the experiences are quite different already. But if you just take my age group, for example, you get a sexual history, the development is a little different of when was your first sexual experience with a other man. Oftentimes, as it was someone who was older, you know, who was an adult, and they were a teenager, and it was often, maybe in a place that was secretive, like in a, you know, hidden corner of a bookstore or something or rather than like a I’m just a young guy, and I see someone I like, and I go towards it, it has to happen in the shadows. So there’s often this way that it evolves that’s a little bit different. So I think it’s so important to get the details from a person to understand how did their sexuality develop? How confident are they? Have they experienced boundary violations before? I think with gay men, even if it wasn’t like a, you know, a direct assault, there’s going to be instances where they probably felt targeted, or they probably felt like people were trying to out them or shame them, or, you know, older men were suggestive with them when they were still in the closet, and they were teenagers. Things like that, I think are so important to assess and to understand.
Michael Pezzullo 14:41
That seems like a very important what to do. I’m imagining that there’s a very important how to do that in an affirmative way, too, that’s not just kind of All right, let’s go through a list of everything that’s ever happened to you. Do you have recommendations on that?
Michael Pezzullo 16:03
Yeah, so I think getting consent, of course, like, I want to ask you about your sexual history, is that okay? And then as you’re asking questions, tracking like, how are you feeling right now? What is it like for you when I ask you about your first sexual experience? What is it like for you when you when you describe, you know, just really tracking their comfort the whole way along.
Curt Widhalm 16:23
Really wonderful trauma, informed kind of work.
Michael Pezzullo 16:26
Yes, yes. But I think being bold too like not being scared to ask the questions too. Even if you’re not a gay male therapist that you’re showing curiosity about this part of them.
Katie Vernoy 16:41
Where do you fit it into your assessment? I guess maybe the broader question is, what would your initial assessment look like with a gay man?
Michael Pezzullo 16:50
It definitely depends on the person, you know, I think, like for all of us, right? And some people, you can get a sense pretty early on, if this person is more comfortable being forthcoming with details and this person is not, so that may tend, and obviously, if, if someone’s coming in and they’re a gay man, but their issue has nothing to do with sexuality. Obviously, I’m not going to say, hold on, don’t talk about your depression. Let’s talk about your sexual history. Because it’s just seems like off topic. But I do think, you know, early ish, it’s an important moment to have with them. And I think it’s it’s no, we always talk about being affirmative, but I think really being affirmative is going into the terrain with them, rather than just saying, like, I’m an ally, like being curious.
Katie Vernoy 17:34
So what type of questions? Where do you start with an assessment with a gay man?
Michael Pezzullo 17:41
So, if I’m doing, like, a sexual history, asking, like, what was your first memories that felt sexual to you? What were your first crushes, you know, and also asking about porn, right? Like, when did you first discover porn? I heard this, you know, porn has become such a horrible issue for men in general, in this country, it’s become such an, you know, a problem. But I read a statistic recently that the average person is exposed to porn for the first time when they’re eight years old. I mean, so it’s really, really young. So getting a sense of that, of when were you first exposed to explicit content, and you know, how much space that take up in your life, and then getting a sense of when did you do something sexual for the first time with the woman or with men, or, you know, if they were in the closet for a while, figuring those things out. And then getting curious about, what do you like? What are your interests? What you know, just very open ended, same thing going to a restaurant, of what on a menu is appealing to you, what interests you sexually and just really normalizing that that that’s part of being a human being.
Curt Widhalm 18:45
Some of the gay male clients that have come into my practice as you’re describing come for seemingly completely different reasons, and I’m glad to feel validated in the way that you’re describing things that there’s kind of the trickle to, Oh, yeah, and by the way, this is something that happened. One of the themes that I had noticed is really when it does come to sexual trauma, especially within the community, it’s having the interpersonal relationships with some of the people who may be perpetrating some of these boundary violations, and being able to navigate some of the social scene with that. It’s a tight knit community in some ways. It’s very loose in other ways, as I’ve come to understand things, but recognizing that this is not just about those traumatic moments, but navigating some of the social aspects of it. What kind of recommendations do you have?
Michael Pezzullo 19:42
Yeah, and I think this is where you know, also as a therapist, too, I think that countertransference is huge when you’re working on these kinds of issues with trauma, sexual trauma, and clocking your own reaction. I’ve also found, too, that a lot of gay men often idealize their therapist if it’s another gay man, there’s almost this assumption that whatever they’re struggling with, I know how to do it, like if they’re struggling with boundaries, I have great boundaries. If they’re struggling with confidence, I have great confidence, like that. It just seems like it comes into the room and I don’t, I don’t dispel it and tell them, you know, like, No, I have all kinds of self esteem issues or anything like that. But, but I just notice it too, that if I’m proclaiming something as a way to do something that may be taken as gospel, and I want to just be weary of that. However, with all that being said, I guess it’s sort of a dialectic. I am a strong proponent of not just setting boundaries, but guarding your boundaries, because I think boundaries are useless if you don’t actually enforce them. And I do think that’s something that you can really coach people on in a more behavioral way of how are you going to make it clear that you don’t want to do this?
… 20:52
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Curt Widhalm 20:53
For some people who come from family of origins where those boundaries have been ignored for years, and especially if it’s coming from not a supportive family of origin where they don’t have some of that practice, how do you scaffold that for some people who might be learning this out for the first time in their 20s, 30s, or even later?
Michael Pezzullo 21:17
it’s a tough question, and it does play obviously into personal biases about how you see the world, so I try to be aware of that. But my personal philosophy is that it is my job to set my boundaries and to guard them. It’s other people’s job to respect that. But if I don’t say it, if I don’t make it clear, that I don’t pull people accountable, you know, obviously, if there’s something like overtly wrong, there’s certain things we all agree on, but that’s kind of how I stand with things. So that’s usually the perspective I take with clients. And again, I found that most people who weren’t raised to, who were encouraged to have no boundaries, that they can do the task of saying the boundary every once in a while, but it when it comes to enforcing it is where things tend to fall flat, and that’s where I think the work really has to has to be about helping them understand what happens when you cave, like what happens when you let go.
Katie Vernoy 22:15
It seems like, just with all that you’ve already described, that interpersonal relationships generally, not just sexual, but all interpersonal relationships could be impacted based on how boundaries are seen within the community or the types of relationships that you most frequently have. And I’m curious, you know, what themes can show up in their adult relationships, the interpersonal violence, attachment like, what are the things that you see frequently come into session that maybe aren’t specifically sexually related, but have have a role in how they interact with the world, interpersonally?
Michael Pezzullo 22:57
That’s a good question. That’s a good yeah, I think obviously this is probably a little bit biased by the area that I’m in, but I think one thing, I think that’s very pervasive for gay men, especially gay men who are a little bit successful and educated and, you know, doing, doing well enough to live in this town, just not, you know, not cheap, right? That there is a lot of presenting. There’s a lot of, you know, kind of like velvet rage stuff, of looking the part, presenting well, like there is such an overt index on that that I think is still so pervasive. I think one big problem about that is that when you’re working with a gay male client who is, you know, educated and smart and attractive, that it’s easy to minimize the distress that they’re in because they don’t look distressed. And I think a lot of gay men have been socialized to do that, to be as appealing as possible, to compensate for some sort of internal sense of shame. And I think the problem with it is it works. You know, we get rewarded for doing that. But I think oftentimes what ends up happening is that people miss their distress. You know, even being a gay man, I’ve caught myself doing it too. So I think that’s the interpersonal dynamic I see them the most frequently.
Katie Vernoy 24:21
It seems like that would be hard to break through, if it’s so ingrained, it’s so rewarded to be okay. How do you address it?
Michael Pezzullo 24:31
I will tell you, I think it is really, really tough, the resistance to going there, especially again, to like, you know, if you get some gay man who is stereotypically attractive and probably has been his whole life, and there’s a part of him that is very celebrated in the world, and that’s very appealing, but there’s another part of him that has gone starved for decades, and trying to allow them to place some attention on that part of them, I think takes a lot of time and a lot of trust in, like, a long term therapeutic relationship, to be willing to go there.
Curt Widhalm 25:14
In some of these long term relationships. You know, we can’t fast forward some of the relationships that we have with clients. But what are some of the things that you have found to be effective? I’m imagining that there’s a healthy amount of self disclosure that allows for some gay men to open up to you, but for therapists who are not from the community, what are some of the things beyond just saying, ‘Hey, I’m an ally’ that really does end up inviting in some of the safe space markers that shows that, hey, we’re here to do the work with you.
Michael Pezzullo 25:50
And that’s a fantastic question. What I will tell you, you know, having I have had so many therapists over my life, as I think most of us have, but I remember, you know, when I went to therapy, being gay was never like a topic I brought in, because it really wasn’t. I had other stuff I was working on, you know. But I remember so specifically, I had this woman who, when she asked me about a couple things about it, and I just kind of quickly glossed over, because I didn’t really have much to say. Didn’t have a lot of, like, quote, unquote gay trauma, necessarily. And she stopped me and backpedaled and just was very intentional about taking the time to ask me, like the questions, kind of like a sexual history questions of, well, when did you come out, and when did this? And it wasn’t just saying, like, I love gay people, you know, thumbs up, but it was truly like inquiring about and she knew some of the stuff, she she knew some things that, she doesn’t know everything, but she knew a couple of key details that really clued me in, of like, Oh, she gets this. It did something to me that I like, it gave me a sense of safety with her that I didn’t know that I needed until I had it.
Katie Vernoy 27:01
You kind of briefly talked about this at the beginning, and we’re running short on time, so I don’t think we’ll have time to go into it now, but I want to know stuff, and so if I want to know stuff, I want to have a better understanding. What are some resources that you would recommend for therapists who aren’t gay men to to have more knowledge that would be supportive of in having informed conversations with their clients?
Michael Pezzullo 27:25
Absolutely. Yeah. Social media, Tiktok, YouTube, go to the people, you know. If you go on YouTube and look up influencers who are talking about the average gay man, who’s talking about his life and stuff he’s struggling with, that’s how you’re gonna get the real perspective of, oh, this is what people really have to say, rather than to advocate and HRC. And sometimes I read stuff, I’m like, I don’t know who they’re even talking to. Like, it’s so academic and so speaking about such fringe issues, I’m like, this doesn’t really speak to the average gay guy that I know. So anyway, long story short, I would say go, go to social media and just watch reels of influencers, or even just, you know, average people talking about like dating as a gay man.
Curt Widhalm 28:12
One of the themes that we’ve hit on in some of our interviews this year, and it seems to be a question that we need to make as part of our regular rotation is there’s a lot of therapy models and a lot of life models where it’s made for the masses, or it’s made for the privileged, or it’s made for kind of the systemic things that existed 30, 40, 50 years ago. And then there’s what actually exists in the community to what you’re just talking about, as far as following reels and that kind of stuff, when it comes to some of the sexual relationships, the healthy relationships, what do you recommend therapists do when talking to gay men about this kind of stuff?
Michael Pezzullo 28:56
Yeah, so I think it’s a really careful balance of we do not want to be the arbiters of what healthy sex has to look like, because it’s interesting, if you Google that term, you’re going to get all kinds of weird answers, and they’re all pretty vague anyway. It’s affirming, it’s celebratory, it’s wonderful, or a lot of adjectives, but no no details. LGBT people, gay people, already grew up being told that the type of sex they want is abnormal, so I think suggesting to someone there’s a paradigm they have to follow that’s correct is going to be shaming by, you know, just by happenstance. However, I think this is a careful balance to strike. However, we do want to help people identify boundaries and have sexual practices that are safe and are not violating. It is a delicate balance, but I think it’s one that’s important to walk. For example, open relationships or non monogamous relationships are very common in the gay community, and these days, if you bring that into therapy, I think more likely you’re probably going to get the Oh, yeah, that’s normal. Just go do that, you know? Like, that’s that’s the way to do it. And I think that’s wrong. I think it, it should be about helping the person come up with what’s right for them, what’s healthy for them, rather than suggesting something. Even if what you’re suggesting seems liberating, if that makes sense.
Katie Vernoy 30:18
That makes a lot of sense, it’s asking the questions versus co-signing.
Michael Pezzullo 30:24
Yes.
Katie Vernoy 30:25
How does that feel for you? What would that look like for you? What relationships are you currently in? What are the agreements that you have? You know, it’s kind of looking at, how do we show up and see the client in front of us and not be hindered by old practices, but also not be just ready to co-sign on on anything, because there’s, there’s so much diversity and so much creativity that happens in our world, in these areas. So I like that a lot. I think that helps to clarify that.
Michael Pezzullo 30:56
Oh, good.
Curt Widhalm 30:58
Where can people find out more about you and your practice?
Michael Pezzullo 31:02
Yeah. So my website’s my name, michaelpezzullo.com I have a very unusual last name, so I promise it’s definitely me. And, yeah, they can reach out to me. I do, you know, free consultations and so on and so forth, in person here in West Hollywood, and then I’m virtual in Florida and California.
Curt Widhalm 31:21
And we will include a link to Michael’s website over on our show notes at mtsgpodcast.com. Follow us on our social media. Join our Facebook group, the Modern Therapist Group, to continue on with this conversation, and until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Michael Pezzullo.
… 31:38
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