Curt’s Guide to Life: Real-World Advice for Therapists Navigating Their Careers
Curt and Katie chat about the life lessons Curt has gathered throughout his professional journey—offering tangible, sometimes hilarious, and always human insights for therapists building sustainable and connected careers.
Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.Transcript
(Show notes provided in collaboration with Otter.ai and ChatGPT.)
In this podcast episode: Career Wisdom for Therapists from Curt Widhalm
Inspired by a cheeky Hollywood assistant account on Instagram, Curt shares a list of practical lessons he’s found valuable—and sometimes learned the hard way—over his years in mental health. Katie adds her own reflections and reframes, creating a conversational guide for how to thrive professionally while staying grounded and human.
Key Takeaways for Therapists on Professional Development, Networking, and Career Sustainability
“Sometimes the world leads you someplace that’s outside of the specific thing that you want to do, but you’re finding a lot of success.” – Curt Widhalm
- Network laterally, not just vertically—build connections with peers who are going through similar professional stages
- Trust your taste, but stay curious—your preferences may evolve, and staying open helps you grow
- Say yes—attend events, network, and get involved in the real world (offline and online)
- Learn to communicate with all people like they are human—empathy should guide interactions beyond clinical settings
- Use empathy as an advantage in networking—focus on what you can give, not just what you can gain
- Don’t take everything personally—it shortens your career and drains your energy
- Be kind to everyone—especially support staff, pre-licensed clinicians, and those lower on the org chart
- Be flexible with your goals—let them evolve as your career does
- Learn by doing—experience teaches more than passive consumption of information
- Find ways to be indispensable—but don’t sacrifice yourself in the process
- Go out of your way to help people outside of your clients—people remember it
- Get involved in an organization you’re passionate about—it can lead to unexpected growth
- Doors will close—use them as motivation to open bigger ones
- Be your own biggest cheerleader—acknowledge your wins and share them confidently
- Your reputation is everything—let it guide how you show up professionally
“Do not treat someone like your personal servant just because they’re below you on that org chart.” – Katie Vernoy
Resources on Therapist Career Growth and Ethical Networking
- Assistants vs. Agents Instagram – the post that sparked this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide
- The Fifty-Minute Hour Consultation Services
- CE trainings and experiential learning tools at therapyreimagined.com
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast
When Laws and Ethics Conflict: Civil Disobedience, Social Justice, and Our Role as Therapists
More Than Cogs in the Machine: Bringing trauma-informed principles into the workplace
What Should Not Be Normalized in Our Profession?
How Can Therapists Take a Real Vacation?
Meet the Hosts: Curt Widhalm & Katie Vernoy
Curt Widhalm, LMFT
Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note:
Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Join the Modern Therapist Community:
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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:
Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):
Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).
… 0:00
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Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 0:13
Welcome back, modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy, and this is the podcast for therapists about the things that happen in our field, the things that happen in our profession, and we are making a bigger effort to have some lighter, more hopeful episodes mixed into our 2025, dark cloud of other content, as many of our episodes have gone very, very serious and even in some of our previous attempts to have nicer episodes that then also turned stark. This one is at least at the beginning of the episode, 95% guaranteed to be hopeful and supportive.
Katie Vernoy 0:13
I think that’s too high. I think 95% is probably way too high. I think just the way that you and I are, we’re just sometimes a bit serious, and we we think about the other alternatives that then all of a sudden, go down a very serious, dark path. It’s just who we are. I think we should own it.
Curt Widhalm 1:18
Well, I think that this is an episode that I, I have to give credit, that a lot of the ideas in this episode came from an Instagram post that is outside of our industry completely. There is a hilarious Instagram account called Assistance versus Agents, which is run by Hollywood assistants about the many things that they face in their field. But I thought that this was such good advice that I am taking many of the things that they’re talking about and hopefully leaving this as good advice for people in our field, people that we’re mentoring, things that I want to try and do better, because I have not always been successful at all of these. But in true just kind of Survival Guide fashion, these are my suggestions for the people who are starting out at my practice, but wanting to share this with the entirety of our modern therapist community, and I did let Katie preview this a few minutes before the episode. Say, Hey, I want to have a 95% positive episode, and…
Katie Vernoy 2:27
And I can only guarantee you 75%
Curt Widhalm 2:30
So these are some suggestions, as Katie put it, “Curt’s Guide to Life” was what you said before the…
Katie Vernoy 2:38
Yes, life lessons or, yeah, something.
Curt Widhalm 2:41
And I will say part one, but I think that these are good lessons that I think in reflection across my career, what I’ve seen work for others, that I might encourage everybody to do. So I have several. I’m very ambitious with what we’re going to get done in this episode today, but I will say at the beginning of the list, this is not necessarily the first one, but we talk about networking as a very, very important piece of things. And what I encourage people to do is it’s probably more important to network laterally than vertically. And I think we’ve talked about this in a couple of episodes before, where some of the people who are out there who are well established at very different points in their career, they’ve they’ve got a network already, and it takes a while to be able to get onto their radar, but for not just professional reasons and referral reasons, but actual support reasons, being around other people who are going through kind of the same things that you are, it’s beyond just the professional touch. It’s also kind of the friendship touch, the place of understanding and more readily available empathy that comes from network with those who are going through the same things that you are and your practices, at least from my observation, tend to kind of grow in conjunction with each other.
Katie Vernoy 4:09
I agree and network with the folks who you want to be your peers. I know for myself when I was starting out in private practice, I had long standing clinical experience, but I was a new private practitioner. And so figuring out, do I want my peers to be the other folks who are new to private practice, or the folks who have longer clinical standing, or have had leadership roles, or those types of things? And so I networked with other leaders. So yes, network laterally, rather than vertically, but I think it is okay to seek mentorship. It is okay to seek supervision from folks, even you know when you’re licensed, but don’t only network with folks who are at the same developmental stage for a piece of it, because I found more recently, I started a consultation group, and most of the folks in this consultation group are they’ve been licensed 20 years and or more, and it just feels wonderful. But I was not networking with those folks initially, I was networking with folks who were more aligned with my private practice experience, and I found it a little bit hard. So, yeah, do an assessment.
Curt Widhalm 5:33
Number two on my list is trust your taste, but stay curious.
Katie Vernoy 5:37
I was so curious on this one because I have no idea what you mean by this.
Curt Widhalm 5:41
I think that this falls into that combination of know yourself, know how you practice, know what it is that you are, and recognize that that’s not the end, that…
Katie Vernoy 5:54
Know yourself, but that is not the end.
Curt Widhalm 5:57
Continue to grow. For many of the sweeping declarations that I had made early in my career about these are populations that I will never work with, and now my practice works almost entirely with those. Or even things listening to some of our first podcast episodes where this is the way that things are. And now that I kind of sit back and I say, you know, eight years ago, me, you didn’t have everything figured out back then.
Katie Vernoy 6:28
And you don’t have everything figured out now.
Curt Widhalm 6:30
And I don’t. And one of the ways to work on that is continue to stay curious. I think that in a lot of ways, I’m still very similar to where I was before, but getting through the ‘This is the only way that things are. This is the only way that things are for me.’ ends up being something that the antidote to that is continue to stay curious.
Katie Vernoy 6:52
I had a conversation with a therapist client about something similar, and really the only important information about that is I found for myself, I could not refer out every client who had something going on that was outside of my stated area of expertise, and so my staying curious has been continuing to consult and train and do the things for the clients I already have, because those are the folks who continue to align. I thought I would never work with eating disorders, and yet, many of my clients, at the very least, have disordered eating. So I’ve done a lot of consultation and got books and done all the things, and no one I need to refer out. But I think there’s so many folks who stay so strong in This is my area of expertise. I will only work with this and keep out this is not yours, and I’ve pushed back on that a little bit for some of the gray area cases that are not they don’t present with it to start out with.
Curt Widhalm 8:05
Next one on my list is say yes, go to Events. Go do presentations, go networking, go attempt to do a lot of the things. Go see the real world. Therapists don’t just have all of your community be online, make real connections with people.
Katie Vernoy 8:25
I think you can have real connections with people online. So I want to push back on that part a little bit, because I’ve gotten a lot of referrals from people I’ve only met online, and I’ve had great relationships people I continue to only meet with online, because they’re pretty awesome people, and I agree. Say, Yes, go to the events. Go network. And because when I get out in the world, and for me, it’s in the South Bay of Los Angeles, and when I get out into the real world, I’m able to find folks who I really enjoy spending time with and get some of that nurturance. And you know, the the other thing, which is, I get referrals from them, too.
Curt Widhalm 9:07
Next is learn to communicate with all people like a human.
Katie Vernoy 9:14
So, so like they are human, or like you are human?
Curt Widhalm 9:18
Like they are a human. People like others with personalities.
Katie Vernoy 9:25
I’m a human.
Curt Widhalm 9:25
I’m a human. We’re both human. And we kind of started our podcast around the idea that therapists aren’t just robots hiding behind a blank slate. None of us do that. Go out, have a personality, have humanity. Treat other people like they have humanity as well.
Katie Vernoy 9:45
Okay, I agree with that. I have, I have no no note.
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Curt Widhalm 9:49
I think that this one’s a lot harder than it looks. I think that especially with the way that news cycles help to perpetuate: It’s us versus them mentalities. And it’s very, very good that it becomes something where we can forget some of the empathy that we have in meeting with people who don’t meet our exact kinds of ideas about the way that the world works. And in truly being able to work with the human condition, it means that we have to check ourselves and provide empathy for all people. And some of that is a lot more work than it is just in well, I just won’t talk with those people.
Katie Vernoy 10:35
Can you give an example of that?
Curt Widhalm 10:38
One of the episodes that we had earlier this year, a couple months ago, was around working with people that in the zeitgeist get called incels, and I make my case in the episode why that’s not a good word to use. But a lot of what I was talking about in that episode is having empathy for how those kinds of clients end up coming in. And it’s something where it can be very, very difficult, and that’s in a clinical setting. This advice is more for in general, but it’s very easy to classify anyone who votes differently than you as being the enemy, but if you treat them like they are a human being, a lot of times that you can come to some kind of common ground and to be able to see that people aren’t just diametrically opposite of you in every way imaginable.
Katie Vernoy 11:35
I think that oftentimes the response to that is showing empathy to someone who’s potentially dangerous to you is not always possible. And I agree, and I think the concept of who is dangerous to us potentially has gotten very big, and I think a lot of folks are very scared, and so yes and take care of yourself. Make sure that you’re providing yourself with the resources that you can show up and be with folks who, within safe parameters, are different from you and are able to be in community with folks who have different ideas. Because I think that’s the glory and the joy of diversity, is sharing a lot of diverse perspectives, even ones that feel very foreign to you or feel very wrong or unknowable to you. I think that’s the only way that we really get to something. But this is not even just networking. I mean, this is just life. So maybe this truly is your life lessons.
Curt Widhalm 12:49
These are life lessons. Yes, next on my list is: empathy is a huge advantage in networking. And this one is also maybe further expanding into not just approaching networking as a What can I get out of this, but a What can I provide?
Katie Vernoy 13:12
Yes, so maybe empathy and compassion and generosity are all huge advantages in networking.
Curt Widhalm 13:19
Next is: It will be a very short career if you take everything personally.
Katie Vernoy 13:27
Are you attacking me right now? Actually, I take very little personally, but I thought I just could not help but do the joke. I agree, and I think if folks are burned out, and they are under attack in different ways, whether it’s from society or from colleagues, it can be very hard to not take things personally. So I think this is a an aspirational one for folks, for some folks, and so I think it’s really important that people actually work on this, because it is very hard to be a therapist if you’re taking things personally, especially within session, but even within networking. I think yes, have boundaries, follow what you need to do, but having it live rent free inside your head, that makes it very hard to sustain being a therapist.
Curt Widhalm 14:22
And also in this, more than this from our friend Dr. Ben Caldwell, as well as some of the advocacy stuff that we do, we’re seeing the ways that sometimes rules get put in place, whether it be at an agency, whether it be legislatively, is not necessarily looking at things through the lens of malice, but looking at it through the lens of potential incompetence, or not understanding the larger ramifications out of things. And it’s a lot easier and healthier to live through life when you look at things that: this isn’t something that is being directed necessarily at me by somebody, but also it could be something where they have the opportunity to not know the impacts of what they’re doing.
Katie Vernoy 15:13
It’s very important to be able to get to a strategic advocacy space, or a place where you can take care of the situation those types of things, but I do want to honor that sometimes some of the stuff, whether it’s personal or not, is deeply impactful for some folks, and so my addition to that is take care of yourself, process the harm, process the feelings around it, and get yourself to a place where you can be in more wise mind, so to speak, where you can identify what is the strategic goal here? What can I do to try to fix this harm or advocate for myself or for folks in my community? Because there are times that even if it’s incompetence or some sort of different philosophy that leads to things like registries or deportations or whatever we’re talking about, like those types of things can feel personal, and maybe they are not, but they still can feel very harmful. And so I think it’s important for us to take care of our emotional responses, our emotional well being, and then step into the things that we can do to help put it in context, This isn’t about me. This is potentially about people like me, but it’s not about me personally. And what can I do here and and what support can I get to be able to shift things and make changes to the world.
Curt Widhalm 16:45
Next on my list, because this is really developed around my practice advice, but I think that make this fit to wherever you are geographically located, be kind to everyone. LA might be a big city, but mental health is a small town.
Katie Vernoy 17:04
I think that’s good advice overall. I think being kind when you can is especially important because there are always the small towns. There’s the small towns of a small Facebook group or the mental health community, or whatever. Being kind is, I think, a really good policy.
Curt Widhalm 17:25
And an extension of that one and more specific is Be nice to the pre licensed, the support staff, those below you on an organizational chart, you never know where they’re going to end up.
Katie Vernoy 17:38
So that’s very strategic. But you also, I would like to acknowledge because they are humans and they deserve your respect. You cannot do your job without the folks that you were describing. This is something where I had, I went on a tirade. This was in a group supervision probably 20 years ago, because folks were complaining about, you know, this was like case managers or rehab specialists and folks that were below them on the organizational chart, and they were just speaking about them as objects. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let’s, let’s remember these are human beings. Treat them with respect and kindness. These are your colleagues, even if they have a different level of education than you do. Do not treat someone like your personal servant just because they’re below you on that org chart.
Curt Widhalm 18:30
I remember when we had the Very Bad Therapy co-hosts on our podcast, back when they were both very much in their pre- license, they might have even still been in grad school or…
Katie Vernoy 18:44
They were in grad school, yeah.
Curt Widhalm 18:46
And when we were promoting that episode, that there was a couple of people who just vitriolically responded to some of our online posts around, What did grad students have to teach us?
Katie Vernoy 19:00
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 19:02
And…
Katie Vernoy 19:02
Not good.
Curt Widhalm 19:03
I still see that name pop up around from time to time, and I choose to remember what their approach to people were. And I think that this is something where it’s also very easy within organizations for people who are higher up in the org chart to get into the well, that’s not my job, kind of attitudes or I I’m that is tasks that are below me, because those are things that pre licensed people do. So, this isn’t just about how we treat these humans who happen to be earlier in their careers or in support type positions, but it’s also how we hold ourselves when we have made advances to ourselves. Have made advances to where we are at in our own careers.
Katie Vernoy 19:56
Oh, for sure. I think we cannot forget that there are our people around us who we need to do jobs in a different way. And I think we talk about this in Cogs in the Machine, or, you know, all of those episodes where it’s clear that at some point, folks in positions of authority start looking at clinicians who bill as productivity machines and as problems to solve versus humans. So I’ll link to all of those things in our show notes over at mtsdpodcast.com. Because I feel like humanity is the basis of our profession, and yet sometimes we do not treat our clients, the people below us on the org chart, or even our colleagues as human.
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Curt Widhalm 20:46
Next on my list is be flexible with your goals. Let them grow and evolve.
Katie Vernoy 20:53
100%
Curt Widhalm 20:54
I think this is sometimes where the advice that I’ve heard, in this is sometimes you end up with the practice that makes you work on your own issues. Sometimes the world leads you someplace that you are finding yourself to be, maybe outside of the specific thing that you want to do, but you’re finding a lot of success. Sometimes it’s not getting hyper focused on just reaching a certain outcome, and some of that evolution ends up coming along with just smoothing out the rougher edges of who you are.
Katie Vernoy 21:33
Absolutely.
Curt Widhalm 21:36
Next is learn by doing. You will learn more from practice than by watching or reading.
Katie Vernoy 21:43
I think there’s so many different ways that that can play out. One is taking clients that are within your scope of practice, but potentially not your scope of comfort, and being able to learn and get consultation or take supervision on it. I think some of it is also how we do CEs and ongoing training. I think a lot of folks will quickly watch or read or listen and try to knock out CEs without a lot of thought, but the ones that are most effective, the ones that are experiential. So I agree across the board, learn by doing.
Curt Widhalm 22:22
I have a feeling that this might be one that you have a little bit of pushback against.
Katie Vernoy 22:27
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 22:29
Find ways to be indispensable.
Katie Vernoy 22:32
I don’t have pushback right away. But maybe can you clarify what you mean by indispensable?
Curt Widhalm 22:38
This is more of an outcome goal rather than a process goal, because I do recognize that sometimes we can make ourselves locked into being somebody’s sole purpose or sole confidant, sole thing that makes us get stuck. But ways that being indispensable really helps is, you know, from classic kind of office culture is, if you do the things that nobody else does, then it’s really hard to fire you. But in general, in life, my suggestion on this is being indispensable is being the one that people think of when it comes to a certain kind of practice, or be the one that when it comes to the certain kind of connection that you have with people, be consistent and be out there and be kind of the one that people end up thinking about more often.
Katie Vernoy 23:39
Okay, so I see why you said I would have some pushback. So I want to put a little bit of a caveat in there. Be indispensable. Don’t get stuck. And I’ve done a lot of volunteer work. That’s one of the ways that I’ve been indispensable to our professional organization and to other types of groups where I step into leadership roles, or I do the things that folks don’t want to do. And I have to be able to understand where I want to put my boundaries. I need to know how to work myself out of a job in some points in those cases, you know, like leadership pipeline, those types of things, and I need to be able to make sure that I’m indispensable in the things that actually are aligned both with my own goals and practice as well as with my capabilities. So, yes, be indispensable, but don’t be indispensable sacrificially or without thought.
Curt Widhalm 24:44
Or statically, yeah.
Katie Vernoy 24:45
Or statically, absolutely.
Curt Widhalm 24:49
Next on my list is: go out of your way to help people outside of your clients, maybe with your clients, but especially with outside of your clients. People take notice when you go that extra step.
Katie Vernoy 25:04
I do that when I get folks calling for services they don’t match for me, I go out of my way to get referrals to other folks. I’ve had random people come to me and they say they were referred by somebody, and I have no idea who they are, because I’ve, you know, spent some extra time on a on a call with a potential client who didn’t line up for me. I think that there’s a lot of folks who, I’m sure you get this as well, reach out and have quick questions about X, Y and Z, and if it’s a quick question, oftentimes, I’ll try to respond. You know, if people actually want to have a little bit of a longer conversation we do have our consultation on our website where people can grab us for a 50 Minute Hour consultation.But if it’s truly a tiny little question, I just respond back. I try to make sure that people feel like I am a resource. Now this goes back to the previous one, which sometimes that gets me in trouble because I am indispensable, and I’m not getting paid for any of it, so I need to make sure that I’m still strategically taking care of my business. But I think helping people outside of your clients is not a bad thing. It also feels like it comes from a place of not feeling overly hungry or chaotic. I think when you can take some time and, you know, move through all the steps and providing people support that that are not necessarily paying you, it feels less like I’m panicked and I need to fill my practice. And I think that that goes along with, you know, I do have a full practice, so I don’t need to be madly trying to get clients all the time.
Curt Widhalm 26:40
And an extension of this one is find an organization you are passionate about and get involved. You’ll meet amazing people that will expand your network in unexpected ways. Now this doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be your professional network. It doesn’t necessarily have to be within mental health industry. Those are great ones, and they work out for many people, but it’s any kind of place where you can go and be excited. That enthusiasm will connect you with other people that will help feed you, help feed your soul, help feed your network. And sometimes that does end up being something that does expand your professional network in ways that are unexpected.
Katie Vernoy 27:24
Yeah, I read this one. I was like, well, that’s kind of how we met. And look at all the things we’ve done. I agree. I think it’s, it’s really fun to find an organization, whether it’s, you know, professional organization or not, that that you can connect with people. It’s, it’s just, it’s an organic way to create a network with people that you are aligned with.
Curt Widhalm 27:53
Next is: doors will close along your journey. You use them as fuel to open bigger ones along the way.
Katie Vernoy 28:03
Oh yeah, that’s a tough one, but it’s so true. One of the doors that closed on my journey was my community mental health journey, and definitely it was the right move for me, but it was super hard and heartbreaking at the time
Curt Widhalm 28:21
When I ran for the President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and was not successful in that election, it was the time to close a chapter in my professional career. And it allowed for me to be able to move on to the next things, and I’ve managed to find other ways to fill that time and that energy to give back to our profession. I think that our podcast would probably look quite a bit different if that had been something that had delayed. And it’s not the end all be all of everything, but learn and move on. Couple of last ones here, be your biggest cheerleader, because no one else will be. It’s up to you to celebrate and acknowledge your wins. Do it humbly. Do it in a way that is, Hey, I am doing stuff. I am doing things. Yay me. Give yourself credit for the things that do well, but you should be your own biggest cheerleader first.
Katie Vernoy 29:34
I think the humble part aligns with our profession. I think that sure be humble if it aligns for you, but you can also be boisterous and bombastic if you want. Be you and celebrate yourself in your own way.
Curt Widhalm 29:47
And last on, this is: All you have is your reputation. Let it guide your decisions. This is the how you work with people you are a representation of how you work with your clients. That’s what people get to peek in on how you are as a person. That’s what their idea of how you are going to show up with clients, that they refer to you, your reputation is what ultimately is the touch that you have with people.
Katie Vernoy 30:15
I think there’s a longer conversation that we have about this in the civil disobedience episode that we do. Because I think, yes, your reputation is who you are, and I think that there’s pieces of that that can go deeper, like, am I aligning with my morals and values? Am I doing what I think is right, and so yes, let your decisions be guided by your reputation.
Curt Widhalm 30:50
We would love to hear what other kinds of advice that you have for others in the fields. This is just a starting place. This is something that I’m sure will continue to grow, and we’ll probably put this on our social media in various chunks as well. And you can follow us on any of our socials. Join our Facebook group, the Modern Therapist’s group, to continue on with these conversations, find our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com. And until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
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