Navigating Pregnancy as a Therapist, An Interview with Emily Sanders, LMFT

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Navigating Pregnancy as a Therapist, An Interview with Emily Sanders, LMFT

An interview with Emily Sanders, LMFT about how to navigate being a therapist while pregnant. Curt and Katie talk with Emily about when and how to disclose to clients, what it means to integrate the pregnancy into the clinical work, the transference and the richness that is available in the clinical work. We also look at practical, business, and clinical logistics for pregnant therapists (with a couple of thoughts for therapists with pregnant partners).

It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.

Transcript

Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.

Interview with Emily Sanders, LMFT

Emily Sanders is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in the state of California who works in a solo private practice in Orange County seeing individuals and couples. Her areas of focus are anxiety, perfectionism, attachment wounds, and relationship issues. In addition to her 8+ years of clinical practice, Emily has taught Human Development and Advanced Counseling at Life Pacific University, speaks for retreats and workshops, and contributed to leadership health and readiness assessment teams. Of all the roles she plays, she most loves being wife to her husband, Michael, of 13 years and mother to their three children Liv, Ellis, and Arlin.

In this episode we talk about navigating pregnancy as a therapist:

“It was a piece of my life that they got to share with me.” — Emily Sanders, LMFT

The challenges facing therapists when navigating pregnancy
Whether or not to hide pregnancies as long as you can
How to integrate the pregnancy into the clinical work
The fear of bringing your parenting journey into the work
Navigating client infertility while pregnant
The individual differences that could impact disclosure, transference and the clinical work
Considerations for when and how to disclose to each client
Themes of abandonment that can come up
Desires that clients can express related to wanting to be your partner or your baby
The connection clients may feel and what they can witness, the curiosity they can experience
Assessing the level of self-disclosure
Seeking the stories related to considerations related to parenting and the parenting journey
Integrating self into the room as a whole person therapist
Planning for taking time away from your practice
The business considerations (including finances)
Clinical coverage and whether clients return to you after a maternity leave
Idea for notifying clients when the baby is born
The importance of looking put together when you return and challenging the notion that you might be fragile
Transference when you return
Looking at the timing of how long you can be gone (financial consideration)
The fear that people will decide on their leave based on financial concerns
Opportunities afforded when you are going to be out for maternity
Business considerations to make sure you’ve addressed prior to maternity leave
The logistics of breast feeding when you return to work
Considerations when your partner is pregnant
Logistic versus comfort-seeking questions you can get from clients both before and after pregnancy

“I would want women and and men to hear that they don’t have to be afraid about bringing that part of themselves into the room, and that perhaps they could actually see it as a really unique opportunity.” — Emily Sanders, LMFT

Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:

We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!

Emily’s website: https://www.emilyhsanders.com/

Emily on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/emilypsychotherapy

Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:

Recession-Proofing Your Practice

Meet the Hosts: Curt Widhalm & Katie Vernoy

Curt Widhalm, LMFT

Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com

Katie Vernoy, LMFT

Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com

A Quick Note:

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Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.

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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

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Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):

Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).

… 0:00
(Opening Advertisement)

Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.

Curt Widhalm 0:15
Welcome back modern therapists, this is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm, with Katie Vernoy. And this is the special birds and the bees episodes where when the bees finds the flowers in therapy land, and we have pregnancy on the therapist end to handle transference, countertransference, with clients, how we go about discussing it with them, some of the issues that come up both before and after pregnancy. And we have Emily Sanders, she’s a licensed marriage and family therapist and mother of three. And she’s here to talk about some of her experiences of pregnancy and all of that kind of stuff. So thanks for joining us today.

Emily Sanders 1:02
Thank you. It’s so nice to be here with you all.

Katie Vernoy 1:05
It’s great to have you. Hey, I just like Curt, I just can’t wait to hear how your kids start learning about the birds and the bees. That’s a lot. All right. So, Emily, thank you for being here. Why don’t you tell us who you are and what you’re putting out into the world?

Emily Sanders 1:22
Well, I’m Emily Sanders, and I am putting babies out into the world, obviously, as Curt said, and I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of California. I’m a solo practitioner. So I have my own practice in Newport Beach. And I love what I do so much.

Curt Widhalm 1:43
This is a question that we hear from time to time, especially with first time parents that are planning families, are looking at the family plan. There’s a lot of questions that we’ve heard throughout the years, as far as how do we go about talking about this with clients? And there seems to be a number of those issues that come up. What do you think is probably the most important one of those to talk about first?

Emily Sanders 2:14
Well, I mean, there’s a number of them, I think, one of the ones that I hear the most from other women, because I do have other female therapists that come to me and ask for my experience, and a lot of women are struggling with when to announce their pregnancy with their clients, and even how to do that. There’s a lot of hesitancy about bringing it into the room. I think part of the conversation that we’re having anyway is relevant just because you know, your podcast, you talk so much about being a whole person while you’re doing therapy and how we bring ourselves into the room. And pregnancy is interesting, because you there is self disclosure that is naturally happening. Your belly is growing in front of your clients. And there’s no way to avoid that. I have Yeah, but I have noticed, because I’m a part of a few mothers in private practice boards on Facebook, and I do hear a lot or read, I guess technically, a lot of the women saying they’re trying to hide their pregnancies for as long as possible. So it’s kind of interesting. I think that a lot of women do struggle as far as how to integrate their pregnancy into their work.

Katie Vernoy 3:28
So we’ve moved this question earlier, because we want to make sure that we’re looking at the learning lessons that we need to to share with our modern therapists.

Emily Sanders 3:38
Yeah.

Katie Vernoy 3:39
And not a judgment, not anything negative, just kind of helping us to identify where we might have growth edges. And so what do you think therapists often get wrong when navigating this time in their lives?

Emily Sanders 3:53
Yeah, sure. And I can understand why you’d want to be careful about using the word wrong, because especially when it comes to babies and pregnancy, you know, for the therapists, there’s so much personal stuff happening. But I think I feel sad when I see how much fear there is around how to integrate the pregnancy into the clinical work. And I guess I would want women and and men to hear that they don’t have to be afraid about bringing that part of themselves into the room, and that perhaps they could actually see it as a really unique opportunity, you know, opens the doors for many good conversations, tons of transference. It’s, it’s really, I actually think it’s really special. And I would want to remove some of the fear about that. Yeah.

Curt Widhalm 4:44
I think to lean into that transference does open up those deeper clinical conversations, and depending on the timing of it, it seems that some of those conversations, depending on the way that someone works, would take months to unfold. It’s both before giving birth as well as any thing that happens in returning back to the office. What about… first place that my mind goes to is around: How do we discuss this maybe with some of those clients that are having difficulties getting pregnant themselves? And some of those issues that come up.

Emily Sanders 5:21
I noticed that the client can be scared to bring up their sadness. And the therapist can be scared to let their joy show. And so they don’t cancel each other out, right. And I’ve had those conversations with my clients and saying, I even feel a little uncomfortable sharing my news with you for fear of how it will impact you. What’s it like for you to hear me say that I’m expecting when that’s something that you want for yourself so badly? It’s sad, to see tears being shed over infertility issues, or things like that. But that exists for the client anyway. And so it opens the door to be able to have those conversations, and to explore how, on the clients end, how people in their personal lives dance around the issue or scared to talk about the issue. And in many ways, it creates a lot of freedom, right, that we don’t have to protect each other. And it’s a beautiful moment for vulnerability. So hopefully, that makes sense. You can ask any clarifying questions if need be.

Katie Vernoy 6:34
Well, I wanted to talk about it a little bit more, because I think that there’s potentially a lot of individual differences that you’re going to see within your clients. I mean, I think there’s the most dramatic disclosure, which is to a client that is struggling with infertility, you know, miscarriage and loss and that kind of stuff. And so I would imagine those conversations would be pretty emotional for both sides, and it would be very difficult to kind of determine, and may even be something where you have to really plan when, how to do the disclosure. Whereas other clients who are potentially completely in a different life stage, or those kinds of things, you may have a different process for disclosure. And so to me, I’m wondering how you would decide when, in the process, how you’re making the assessment client by client, when do I disclose this? And what what do I need to consider?

Emily Sanders 7:29
And I think that’s why it is so important to understand that every relationship that you have with each of your clients is its own. And so there’s never going to be just one pat answer. And so every client does need their own presentation in some way. And so, you know, when it came from me telling my clients, I would keep in the back of my mind, what’s their attachment like? How much does this client have fears of being abandoned? How many of this of these clients are dealing with their own types of loss? In which clients should I expect to see a resurgence of their symptoms because of my news? And so trying to make sure that I’m seeing each relationship and making my decision, not just one like, Okay, I’m going to announce at week 20, across the board. And you know, right at the start of each session, I really take the time to contemplate what each client needs. So, and for some clients, I think it’s great feedback, because some, just dismiss it instantly. And that gives you great insight into the client. Other clients become super curious. And then they want to start asking about, well, the rest of your family. And so I’m guessing you’re married? And do you have any other children? And so then all of a sudden, they’re wanting to ask a ton of questions. Other clients, you can see that they just start to get very quiet and they get fidgety. I mean, ultimately, many of the clients are just curious, as has as to how that’s going to be impacting the therapeutic relationship. And I still going to be in their life? Is the therapist still going to be a part of of their life?

Curt Widhalm 9:10
I’ve seen exactly these points with a couple of the people who practice close with me. Either people working in my practice, or some of my close colleagues, where there’s this desire, this transference that comes out as well, I wish I was the baby, hey, I’m having these fantasies about you mothering me and that relationship being taken away that just kind of illustrates the point that you’re talking about.

Emily Sanders 9:36
Yeah. And so that’s why it’s it’s a fun conversation, which is part of the reason that I reached out to you both anyway, because it is it’s really really rich work. I having clients dreaming about me giving birth and then being there or just like you said, wishing that they were my partner or being envious of the baby. I mean, and I think you that is part of the reason that some women get so nervous because that pulls out a lot of air quotes unpleasant feelings. And, you know, if the therapist personally doesn’t feel comfortable or prepared to handle some of that it can make sharing really difficult. So some women really are going to need extra consultation or support or continuing work with their therapist to make sure that the relationship stays intact and their business stays intact.

Katie Vernoy 10:32
You’ve continued to talk about how the work can be very rich.

Emily Sanders 10:35
Yeah.

Katie Vernoy 10:35
I just am curious on kind of what that looks like? What are the things that are unique to that time that that may be your clinical issues, or clinical challenges? Or even just clinical triumphs that happened specifically because of this time in a therapist’s life?

Emily Sanders 10:51
Yeah, well, the first thing that comes to my mind is even just the fact that my clients, I’ll just speak from my perspective, rather than just universalizing it. With my clients, it was unique, because it was a piece of my life that they got to share with me. And so I do feel like it helps them feel closer to me in that respect, right. So we try to be so careful about our self disclosure. And that’s appropriate, and that shouldn’t stop just because, pregnant, right. But it is a part of my life that they got to observe seeing me grow and being curious about how I’m feeling. And so rather than just well, we can’t talk about me at all. No, stop, stop. It’s about you. Aallowing them to just be curious about me and and know a little bit more about me, it actually was somewhat of a bonding experience. And, obviously, being careful about what I’ve shared about myself, making sure that what I’m sharing is still for the client’s benefit, and being sensitive to whether it is just a fact seeking question, or if they’re actually asking a little more right, a comfort seeking question. It was fun to let them be a part of my life, I genuinely care about my clients. And so it was fun to let them share a part of me that I honestly had no choice anyway. So. So I in some ways, it made me more human. And I loved that. And then in general, getting to work with the transference clinically, is just really, really helpful. Getting to hear the stories of longing, why wish I had had another child, but I didn’t, or the infertility stories, or clients thinking about what it was like when they were babies. It just in so many ways, is a springboard into so much subject matter and content that I don’t know would come up as organically otherwise. So for that reason, I see it as being a really unique opportunity.

… 13:06
(Advertisement Break)

Curt Widhalm 13:07
And you’re an old pro at this, maybe that’s not the best way of segwaying in to a question here.

Emily Sanders 13:12
I’m getting old getting, Curt. But….

Curt Widhalm 13:15
You’ve been through this process a few times now. Thinking back to the first pregnancy and going through this. Putting yourself into the that mindset where potentially a lot of people who are interested in this episode are sitting with that question, that might be a question that’s coming to them in the next couple of years. You’re comfortable talking about this. How do you handle the nerves of kind of being so out there with something that you have to self disclose about?

Emily Sanders 13:47
Well, that’s unrelated to pregnancy. That’s because of doing my own therapy, quite honestly. I mean, there’s no way around that. I feel really comfortable integrating myself into the room because I see it as being so crucial to the work. So now there’s not nerves in that respect. But the first time, I actually was still in school, I was ending my graduate program. And I found myself pregnant, that we were not planning it, my husband and I and it was quite a shock. And I actually was upset about it. And I remember having a professor told me, she said, Emily, ultimately, being a mother will make you a better therapist, and being a therapist will make you a better mother. And at the time, I kind of flicked away her loving encouragement, because I was just upset. But it’s something that I’ve held on to and I think that it is true. You know, with my first pregnancy, I remember showing a videotape in consultation and the teacher was saying, I can’t imagine what it’s like for your client here. She’s talking about her mother, and you’re sitting there with a huge belly in all your maternal glory, and she was all excited about the work that could be done, and I just I don’t think it was in the place to really see it yet. Yes, my first experience that was certainly no pro, but as second and third pregnancy have unfolded. And I took quite a bit of time between each of my children, it has been nice to see me at the start completely missing all of it and whatever I did no harm. And then now at the end, yeah, it’s an evolution. That may not quite be answering your question. But I think it’s really normal to feel nervous the first time figuring out how to do that, especially, you know, at that point, because I was in school, I wasn’t worried about how to maintain my practice, or my client load or making money, that wasn’t an issue for me yet. So the conversation has changed now that it’s my practice, and it’s my clients, and it’s my income. So, yeah.

Katie Vernoy 15:57
I know, a lot of the clients that I work with, who are therapists will often times come to me to help plan for that, like, how do I set my practice up so that I can leave it? And so obviously, it’s for some of my folks, it’s group practices. That’s a very different set, right? Like, there’s a whole other set of things for that.

Emily Sanders 16:17
Yeah.

Katie Vernoy 16:17
When you’re a solo practitioner, how do you prepare your practice for maternity leave?

Emily Sanders 16:22
The first thing is even just thinking, How do I cover my overhead costs while I’m not bringing money in, right? So just wanted to make sure that I could still pay my rent and all that good stuff. And then also thinking about some of the other therapists that are in my area that I trust and have good relationship with and talk to them and said, Is it okay, if I use your name and number with some of my clients if they have some issues while I’m out, can they reach out to you? And then ultimately, only one of my clients ended up needing to do that. But yeah, that was fine to reach out to some of the therapists in my area, the benefit of knowing other good clinicians around you. So there was some safety in that aspect. Also, I did try as best that I could to help my clients understand what it would look like, while I was gone, that time frame to create a little bit of structure. So it wasn’t like I was just disappearing, and they’re freaked out. So it’s almost like when you’re doing play therapy, you know, you tell the children, okay, 10 more minutes, 5 more minutes, and you’re helping to prepare them is the same thing with the belly countdown. Oh, yes, I’m going to be gone in a month and not avoid the fact that that’s scary. And so the more that that’s in front of their face, and we don’t have to be scared of it is was really important. So it wasn’t like I just all of a sudden disappeared. And so that I could work with the symptoms that were popping up as I was preparing to leave because it’s inevitable, it will, it resurfaced. So helping them understand the timeframe before I went out on maternity leave, I actually said each of my clients return date. And so I personally felt comfortable doing that I do realize that’s not a great solution for everybody. If they’re not sure how long they want to be out, then that may not be feasible. And in the case of maybe death of an infant or something tragic, that may have to be postponed, right. But in as much as you can, I went ahead and I scheduled my clients so they knew when they would be getting to see me again.

Curt Widhalm 18:30
When you do end up returning.

Emily Sanders 18:33
Yes.

Curt Widhalm 18:33
There’s all the questions about the baby and about the birth and the pregnancy and that kind of stuff. So things aren’t over just would you leave they…

Emily Sanders 18:41
Oh, by no means.

Curt Widhalm 18:42
They boomerang back around. What’s been your experiences with that?

Emily Sanders 18:46
Yeah, oh, it’s good stuff. Well, I will say what I did personally, to help not take up so much of the session time upon my return, I chose to text my clients a picture of the baby after the baby was born. That felt good for me, they’d been seeing it grow inside of me and I know that they wanted to know that the baby was healthy and that I was okay. So I made the decision to send a picture of the baby and the name and then let them know that we were both healthy. And that I looked forward to seeing them again. And and that was that. And my clients, we work together real well to have good boundaries. So there’s no expectation that I was going to be doing therapy with them. Most of them simply say congratulations or hearted it what not. So it was not engaging in this dialogue over text. But that was my way of announcing that I was well and the baby was well. So that did help when I returned that a ton of time wasn’t being taken up. Well, what did you end up naming the baby and how is the baby? So that was helpful for me. And clients enjoyed that. I think it helped them feel like I touched bases with them in my absence. And then also, I did try to make sure that when I returned that I looked put together. I know that sounds silly, and you laugh. But there is kind of this perception for many of the clients, as am I fragile now? Right? Do I have space for them? I just left them to go be with another person. And and so some of my clients fear if I still have room for them? Am I available for them? Do I wish that I was with my baby and not them. And so there, of course the transference continues, right? So I tried to make sure that I looked nice, that I had, you know, I bought a nice dress to hide my swollen belly still. You know. And I did my hair and makeup, and which I mean, I would do anyway. But I did even have one of my clients who sat down, he’s like, Hey, you look good. I wasn’t sure what to expect. You know, so we got to talk about that. But I did want them to feel like I was present and happy to be back and I had room for them, I was ready to come back and have space for them. And on that note, too, I think it’s important that to some extent, for some clients, not all, there’s a bit of repairing the rupture of being gone. And again, that’s holding the my joy, your pain, because for many of my clients, I would come back and they would not want to tell me but it was hard while I was gone. And they missed me or or something upsetting happened for them, and I wasn’t there for them. And so being able to give them space to say that they missed me or that it was hard and maybe they were even frustrated or envious, right. And for me to be able to repair that and say I wasn’t there for you. And of course your clients are gracious, well, it’s fine, it’s fine, it’s fine, it was a good reason. And to be able to tell them well, we’re not asking whether it was a good reason it was quite valid. But I care about you too. And I wasn’t there when you needed me. And that makes me sad. So I’m not apologizing because I did nothing wrong. But I do feel sad that I couldn’t be there for them. So for some returning to practice, have some of those conversations too.

… 22:28
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Katie Vernoy 22:28
I want to step back a little bit because I think there’s some logistics that, logistics and clinical considerations when you’re planning for that leave. And also what that leave looks like. I know for some women, there has been permanent transfers to other therapists, for some, it’s a, you know, clients will just wait till you’re back. Some clients will want to have maybe some intermediate sessions with other folks and then come back to you. What are some of the clinical considerations? And then also, what are some of the fears around kind of what you can come back to financially that kind of stuff?

Emily Sanders 23:03
Yes, well, I do hear a lot of clinicians, they’re worried what their practice will look like when they come back. And so some clinicians may want to determine their maternity leave based on that. I don’t want women to make choices out of fear, because there are clients everywhere, work will always be there. And so I don’t want them to operate out of fear. However, for some women there, there are actual tangible financial needs. And so that obviously has to be taken into consideration with how long they’re going to be gone. You know, I think about some of your podcasts and your work around recession proofing your practice, or or keeping your, your practice financially stable. And so often you both have come back to if you’re doing good work, your clients will remain. And so I would say that to women, too, if you’re doing good work with your, your clients, they want to come back to you. And so you can reduce the anxiety, if you’ve been doing good work and you have a solid relationship, they will still be there. And so that there doesn’t need to be fear surrounding that. To some extent, if they do find that a better fit with another therapist in your absence, then that is sad, but also great for them. So…

Katie Vernoy 24:26
I’ve, I’ve actually worked with some folks that they use this opportunity to also really reassess their caseload to see are there folks that I’m not making the progress I need to make with them? Or would a different type of therapist be potentially positive and always providing the client with the opportunity to make that choice and also determine do I want to come back or not? But I think it’s an interesting time because there’s also for some folks, they need to come back at a certain point and be full up and running and that kind of stuff financially. For others, they’re thinking I want to come back to a smaller, private practice. so that I can can do the mom thing, the parent thing as well as doing the practice. And so I think that looking at the caseload, finding a coverage plan, making sure that you’ve thought through what the likelihood is, and really thinking outside of the box, I like that you’re saying kind of do the good work, you know, the clients will come back, I also think that it’s an opportunity for self care, because you are going to have this break, this pause for a period of time, and so being able to make sure that you’ve done the work clinically, so that when they come back, they’re ready to go. I think another thing that a lot of folks should consider if they haven’t, is being able to make sure all of the the workings keep going so that the rent keeps getting paid the the, the things keep running that potentially you turn off your, your advertising, that you’re not paying for it while you’re out. I mean, it’s like little stuff like that, I think that it can be something where sitting and really pausing and thinking through all of those systems to make sure they’re going to happen especially like if you’ve got rent or different things that have to be paid in for group practice owners, payroll has to be run and supervision has to happen and all that stuff, making sure that if you were incapacitated, it will still continue to run. And I think a lot of people oftentimes don’t have systems in place. I’m a systems person, so they don’t have systems in place. So this is a perfect opportunity to get everything streamlined, so that the practice runs without you. And you can come back without having to clean everything up. Because it can be a big ol mess if you don’t plan ahead.

Emily Sanders 26:32
Yes. And on that note, too, it popped into my mind, something that I get asked a lot, too is questions surrounding breastfeeding, and even how to structure sessions surrounding being able to do that. And so if it’s okay, I’d be happy to address that, as well. Yeah, so I think when you’re a first time mother, and depending how long you’ve taken your maternity leave, women need to be sensitive towards their milk supply. So obviously, if they are brand new mothers their very first baby, and they should be really sensitive to make sure that they’re pumping every two to three hours and not skipping because they want to be able to maintain their supply. So to be able to structure your sessions accordingly. So I know for me for some time, my session timing was off, rather than being solidly on the hour at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and so on, I would see a client at 1pm, 2pm, schedule a 15 minute break, and then it would be 3:15 to 4:15, 15 minute break, and so on. So just making sure that there is time to be able to care for yourself in that way. Because it’s really important to leave space for that.

Curt Widhalm 27:53
There’s other people who are therapists who sometimes get involved with the pregnancy stuff, too. And I just kind of want to shift this last couple of minutes over to talking about dads who are expecting babies and kind of some of the not even close to similar comparisons that would be going on with moms who are pregnant, but that there is, you know, certain aspects that come up around that part of the practice, too. Have you had discussions with male therapists whose partners are going through this process and some of the considerations that they’ve had before?

Emily Sanders 28:29
No.

Katie Vernoy 28:29
And also female partners or non binary partners whose partners are pregnant?

Emily Sanders 28:33
No, I haven’t. Typically, it’s been pregnant moms that have come to me. But I think that it is still important for partners to be thinking about this as well. Obviously, there’s not going to be the immediate self disclosure in terms of, you know, body shifting in front of the clients and changing but partners do need to be thinking about when they announced the pregnancy as well, so that they would be mindful of how much notice they’re giving their clients Oh, my, you know, my wife is expecting or my partner or my girlfriend is expecting, I’m going to be out on paternity leave or family leave for some time. And so making sure that, you know, your clients have that heads up too. And so playing around with that timeframe is important. And yeah.

Curt Widhalm 29:25
I’ll say you know, the body shifting thing DadBod have to be there somewhere. So, don’t be so quick to write that one off.

Emily Sanders 29:35
Yes.

Katie Vernoy 29:37
And I think the notion that you let them know, that your partner is expecting and that you’re going on a family leave I think is important because it’s probably going to be a longer period of time. And so if you just say I’m going out on family leave or there’s a family, you know, family issue, and I’ll be out for a while. Like you know if clients may worry a lot if they don’t know what’s happening. And so being able to talk about that is really interesting because it’s, it’s whether you take a really long vacation, or if you have a leave of some sort or people going for surgery, I mean, there’s always going to be that like, how much time do you prepare in advance of a longer leave to be able to talk about it? And it seems like there’s some similar issues as when you would disclose a pregnancy yet it would only be more leave versus well accepting Curt’s case where it’s DadBod. You would it would be more about processing the absence and, and potentially also the same things about abandonment and those kinds of things. But it wouldn’t be, it’s viscerally in the room, week after week.

Emily Sanders 30:41
Yes, yeah. But there is a lot of overlap, like because dads may also have to deal with, you know, pushing for more self disclosure, or a client, bringing them a gift for the baby, and so on. So absolutely, it’s great to be mindful of.

Curt Widhalm 30:57
I can talk from my experience is that many of the issues that you’re talking about, because of all of the points that you’re bringing up just seems to happen in a much more truncated range. That rather than, you know, showing for several months ahead of a birth it’s and planning on, you know, for those who can afford to take some of their maternity leave before their due date is, I told my clients a few weeks before our expected due date, hey, we’re expecting a baby. I’m going to leave my phone kind of over to the side. And if I get an emergency phone call, because unexpected stuff is coming up, here’s kind of the situation that’s dealing with that. But you have my attention in less something crazy comes up. And all of my clients were super responsive about that. We got really great conversations that kind of went into that that disclosure. We had the discussions around Okay, the baby came, I sent out messages to my clients, here’s my planed time off. Here’s, here’s the people in the background that you know, you can turn to. And then the same conversations upon the returned. How did the How’s the baby? How’s the baby? What? And it just giving it enough of a nod to it that appeases some of the questions and then allows for the return back to the work?

Emily Sanders 32:28
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that’s really well said, You give a little space for it. It’s a connecting point, you quell the curiosity, just enough, obviously, you didn’t sit and decide to talk about your new child for the whole session, because that would be for you. But but answering your questions is I do think to some extent it is helpful for the clients, for sure. And I think that is the importance to have understanding how much of this is just a fact seeking question, right, a reality based question, Is your child well, so on and so forth? versus more of a comfort seeking question. So for therapists to be just sensitive to that. Yeah.

Curt Widhalm 33:11
Our guest today, thank you so much for sharing about your experiences, both as mom, as a pregnant clinician and all the work that you do in supporting other clinicians going through their pregnancies as well. Where can people find out more about you and your practice?

Emily Sanders 33:30
You can find me on Facebook, Emily H Sanders. You can also reach out to me on my website, emilyhsanders.com. And find me there.

Curt Widhalm 33:40
And we’ll include links to Emily’s website and social media in our show notes. You can find those at mtsgpodcast.com. And while you’re over there, check out all of the other things that Katie and I are working on. As always coming join us over in the Modern Therapists Group on Facebook and be a part of our community there furthering these conversations, sharing your stories. And until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Emily Sanders.

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