Why the Math Doesn’t Work: How Student Loan Debt Hits Therapists Harder Than Other Professions

0:00

0:41:34

Why the Math Doesn’t Work: How Student Loan Debt Hits Therapists Harder Than Other Professions – An Interview with Mick MacLaverty

Apple Podcasts Stitcher Spotify Subscribe on Android Download Leave a Review Keep me updated!

Why the Math Doesn’t Work: How Student Loan Debt Hits Therapists Harder Than Other Professions, An Interview with Mick MacLaverty

Curt and Katie sit down with student loan expert Mick MacLaverty to unpack why student loan debt disproportionately impacts therapists and other healthcare professionals. From the rising cost of graduate education to inconsistent, visit-based income structures, this conversation explores why the financial math of becoming a therapist often does not work out the way it was promised.

Together, they discuss how federal student loan policy has evolved, why forgiveness programs have become politically volatile, and what options therapists should understand when navigating repayment, refinancing, and employer-based benefits. This episode offers both systemic context and practical clarity for clinicians trying to build sustainable careers while managing long-term debt.

Transcript

Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.

(Show notes provided in collaboration with Otter.ai and ChatGPT.)

About Our Guest: Mick MacLaverty

Mick MacLaverty is the CEO and co-founder of Highway Benefits, a company that helps employers offer student loan repayment as a benefit. He and his co-founder, Cory Micheel, have spent thousands of hours researching the student debt crisis and are deeply passionate about helping employees find realistic, sustainable ways to manage and reduce student loan burden.

In This Podcast Episode: Student Loan Debt, Therapist Income, and Financial Sustainability

Curt and Katie invited Mick onto the podcast to address a growing and often under-discussed issue in the mental health field: the gap between the cost of becoming a therapist and the realities of therapist income. They explore how graduate education requirements, insurance reimbursement structures, and federal policy decisions intersect to create long-term financial strain for clinicians.

The conversation also examines how student loan debt has become politicized, why financial literacy is rarely taught, and how employer-based repayment benefits may play a role in improving retention and sustainability within therapy and healthcare settings.

Key Takeaways for Therapists Navigating Student Loan Debt, Income Instability, and Career Longevity

“It’s not just the total debt amount. It’s the delta between student debt and income potential. That’s where the major problems exist.”
— Mick MacLaverty

Nearly one in three U.S. workers carries student loan debt, but close to 80% of therapists and clinical psychologists hold at least one student loan
Therapists often graduate with significantly more debt than average while earning inconsistent, visit-based income
Monthly repayment expectations do not align well with fluctuating caseloads and reimbursement delays
Federal pauses, forgiveness discussions, and policy shifts have created confusion and uncertainty for borrowers
Financial literacy is rarely part of professional training, leaving clinicians to navigate complex loan systems alone
Employer-based student loan repayment benefits can reduce both principal and long-term interest costs
There is no single right solution, but understanding options early can meaningfully reduce long-term burden

“There should be no stigma about student debt. You should talk about it. Knowledge is power.”
— Mick MacLaverty

Resources on Student Loan Debt, Therapist Finances, and Employer Repayment Benefits

We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some helpful links:

Highway Benefits: https://highwaybenefits.com
Section 127 employer student loan repayment benefits (IRS) – FAQ
Federal student loan servicers and repayment programs, including income-driven repayment and PSLF

Relevant Episodes of the MTSG Podcast

Meet the Hosts: Curt Widhalm & Katie Vernoy

Curt Widhalm, LMFT

Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com

Katie Vernoy, LMFT

Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com

A Quick Note:

Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.

Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.

Join the Modern Therapist Community:

Linktree

Patreon | Buy Me A Coffee

Podcast Homepage | Therapy Reimagined Homepage

Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy:

The Fifty-Minute Hour

Connect with the Modern Therapist Community:

Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group

Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):

Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements)

… 0:00
(Opening Advertisement)

Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.

Curt Widhalm 0:13
Welcome back, modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy, and this is the podcast for therapists about the things that go on in our lives, our professional lives, the things that we do, the things that we tell the youngsters coming up in our profession. And a lot of times it’s just something around just pay your dues, but what if your dues are six figure debt that just follows you seemingly for the rest of your life and can’t be discharged in bankruptcy or anything like that. And of course, student loans is what we’re talking about, and we are joined today by Mick McLaverty to talk about student loan debt, talk about the way that it impacts us, and I’m sure that this will be a conversation that we weave into a bunch of future episodes as well. So thank you very much for joining us and sharing some of your expertise on this.

Mick MacLaverty 1:09
Absolutely, happy to be here.

Katie Vernoy 1:12
So we’re excited to jump into this conversation because it’s such a huge problem in our profession. But before we get to the meat of this conversation, let’s ask you the question we ask all of our guests, which is, who are you and what are you putting out into the world?

Mick MacLaverty 1:27
I’m Mick MacLaverty. I founded Highway Benefits. We help companies basically contribute to their employee student loans. And founded the company about five just over five years ago. And I’m trying to put out into the world that there are solutions to navigating student debt, and it doesn’t need to be a, you know, everlasting problem in your life. I guess that’s the short and sweet version of it.

Curt Widhalm 1:52
A very long time ago. And I’m thinking about kind of when we started this podcast, which was forever ago. We talked about how the cost of becoming a therapist used to be like a cup of coffee, and over time, educational expenses have grown. Higher education expenses in general have, and you add on professional grad school, It gets a lot more. Most of our listeners are probably aware that student loan debt is a thing. What it, from your perspective, is it that therapists need to know about student loan debt today?

Mick MacLaverty 2:29
I think it’s good to just have a general under everyone knows that student debt exists, and it’s kind of a it’s in the news more prevalently now it’s almost every day. You can log into CNBC or Bloomberg and read an article or two about student debt. But I do think it’s good to know, just like a general understanding of the impact that student debt has, and then, more specifically, what industries are kind of targeted for student debt. So I think it’s good to at least get a holistic picture of what’s going on, in order to at least get some kind of grasp or comprehend, like, how does my situation kind of compare to other individuals or other industries? And then, you know, I’ll just quickly say one thing you know, guidelines on student debt generally suggest that 10 to 15% of your take home pay or income should be allocated to paying off your student debt. But now that’s kind of changing, and specifically within you know, therapy, it’s it’s a bit challenging, given that, if you know you have $1,000 a month payment, that math becomes challenging for everyone in the industry. So I think it’s just good to know that, like, the debt averages, the levels that people are taking and the way that the industry is structured, it’s just kind of creating a bit more of a problem. So a bit of a ramble, but just, I think it’s good for people to get a holistic picture of not just yourself or your industry, but just, like, general practices and like, what is student debt? How many people have it, etc.

Katie Vernoy 4:03
So what is student debt? How many people have it?

Mick MacLaverty 4:09
Great question. They’re about, estimates are about 46 million people right now. So this is a uniquely us problem as well. Does exist in Canada and UK and Australia as well, but the way that it works here creates kind of unique problem. So there are about 46 million people, there’s about $1.7 trillion of student debt. So there’s been about a trillion dollars of student debt added in the last 12, 13, years. So almost $100 billion of student debt gets underwritten a year. A lot of people probably know this, but in 2020 the federal government actually paused payments on student loans and federal interest rates on student debt, so if you held a federal loan, so about 93% of all student debt, 94% is held at the federal level. You didn’t need to make a payment, and your interest didn’t accrue. And that got extended like eight or nine times until kind of October of 2023, but then kind of October of 2024 and then now each subsequent month, more and more people have to make their payments again, an interest is starting to accrue. So for instance, anyone involved in the Save Plan had their interest resume starting August 1, and that was about 8 million people. Last month their interest resumed. So this is not a not a small issue. It’s about one in three workers in the US has student debt.

Curt Widhalm 5:39
How do you see this affecting therapy professionals, healthcare professionals, as some of this stuff comes back into line?

Mick MacLaverty 5:49
Yeah, I like to kind of back to what I previously said. I like to look at the averages, which everyone thinks is out of control anyway. So it’s just good to take the baseline average and then benchmark certain industries to that. So in that frame of reference, almost, you know, one in three workers has student debt. So it’s about 30 ish percent. The average amount of student debt is about 40 ish $1,000. When you look at clinical psychology, for instance, almost 80% have one student loan, so almost triple, right? And then in terms of the dollar amount, it’s almost $80,000, so more than double the average. So when you think about specific industry, others are worse, actually, but when you think about therapy in this industry, it’s like it is, it is one of the industries that is more effective because of graduate schools and because of the pay structure in the business. So I think that’s something that I like to think about. Again, it’s like holistic picture. Look at the averages benchmark against that.

Katie Vernoy 6:54
So therapists more therapists have more debt.

Mick MacLaverty 7:00
Precisely.

Katie Vernoy 7:02
So what does that mean? Like, what does that actually look like?

Mick MacLaverty 7:06
It means a few things. And again, there are other industries that that are kind of worse, and worse is also a relative term, because is taking on more debt bad if you know that you’re going to make a lot more money. So for instance, if you’re going to be a medical doctor, a veterinarian, dentists actually take on, on average, the most student debt. They take on almost $300,000 of student debt. But three years after they graduate, the income levels are quite high, so the payback, or the ability to pay the debt back is not as significant of an issue. Whereas for therapy, not even just clinical therapy, but even like physical therapy, occupational therapy, the requirement of grad schools and the way that the industries are structured does actually make it more challenging. So I think when I look at different industries or how the impact of student debt has really affected people, one very interesting thing that we’ve seen is that when you have an industry where the revenue generators are salaried employees, student debt payback is actually not as challenging or not as difficult. So dentists, veterinary they take on extreme, extraordinary amounts of debt, but the industry works in such a way that over 5, 10, years, they’ll likely pay that debt off. Whereas in industries like physical therapy, clinical therapy, marriage counseling, et cetera, where the revenue generators are hourly or visit based, that creates a significant issue because of the way insurance reimbursement works, or other things like that. So it’s really the, it’s not just the total debt amount. It’s the delta between student debt and income potential. That’s where the major problems can exist.

… 9:02
(Advertisement Break)

Katie Vernoy 9:04
So not only are we not paid well or paid consistently, we have more debt to pay off?

Mick MacLaverty 9:10
Correct. And on a relative basis, it’s much more debt to pay off. And you said a very striking word, which is inconsistency and student debt wants you to be paying back monthly limits. And so when you’re not salaried, or you don’t have, like, a consistent and you don’t know, you know, every two weeks what your kind of take home can be or will be, it creates just kind of a challenging position to put clinicians in, for sure,

Curt Widhalm 9:40
This is sure depressing.

Mick MacLaverty 9:43
That’s not the goal. The goal is, again, to educate and just, you know, give background and insights so that you can plan accordingly. There are solutions which we can talk about later, but apologies for the depressing nature of what we do. This is what I deal on every day.

Curt Widhalm 9:58
Some of the stuff does. Let’s really start with some of the federal policies around things. That I know a lot of colleagues have either completed public student loan forgiveness in order to be able to address some of these issues, and then administration changes and programs such as those end up becoming questionable, even for people who’ve already committed in them. Can you talk about how federal policy in the zeitgeist around student debt has really evolved over the last five years?

Mick MacLaverty 10:34
Yeah, for sure. I, I live in two worlds. One, I’m a debt holder, and two, I try to be and for for our company, we try to be as objective as we possibly can. And so generally, the people, and more importantly, parents, are really starting to take a hard look at is this worth it, right? I think specifically, in the last five years, things have gotten so bad that people are looking at alternative options, looking at trade schools, looking at Is this, again, Is this worth it? Do we want to go, do I, as a parent, want to take on a Parent PLUS loan for my child, who is 18 years old, who, by the way, is going to college, to try to learn and become passionate about some subject that they can go and then get it, become prepared, and get a job in that specific field. I think, I think a big one, when you think about things, is kind of like coding schools in the 2010s is a good example of this. A lot of people were saying, or freshmen, sophomores in college, kind of saw the writing on the wall. I’m going to take on another $100,000 of student debt over the next two years to get some kind of undefined job that I don’t know what I’m going to get. Maybe I should go to a coding school where I can actually learn something and then go work for a big tech company, which, by the way, pays really well and has great benefits, insurance, et cetera. So in terms of federal policy affecting things specifically within the past five years, I think it’s really, people are really, really, there’s a lot, there’s always been talk, but people are really examining, is this worth it? Is this what I want to put myself through? Is this what I want to put my child through? And I think when parents come into play and start questioning, is it worth it, that’s when it’s very unique. Used to be individuals kind of saying, I don’t know if it’s worth it. There are all these other paths I can try it. But I think parents kind of stepping in, and also being like, I have to pay, you know, $250,000 for this ticket for my kid to go graduate. And also I’m I don’t know what the job market’s like out there. I got let go from my job. So it’s just it makes people think twice about just writing that blank check or taking on that student loan.

Katie Vernoy 12:47
Why have education costs gotten so huge? And I’m thinking about, especially for the profession that Curt and I are in, there’s very expensive graduate programs that folks are kind of having to navigate in order to get to the career that they’re looking for, and kind of to respond to what you just said, there’s a lot of folks who say, Yeah, I don’t know if financially, this feels worth it, but this is my life passion. This is what I need to be. I’m a therapist. I have to learn how to be a therapist. And so there’s not a lot of other options. And so back to the question, why is this so bad? Why is it so expensive to get education, to do a job?

Mick MacLaverty 13:34
So I, I believe there are, there is not a one decision pinpoint that says if we had made this one decision differently, things wouldn’t be this bad. I believe this is a true series of decisions made over the past 50 years, culminating in this current climate or this current issue. Although there is no one root cause, per se, I think there are a few chapters of the last 40-50, years that have led to the current state, the earliest one being the debate on whether Americans have a right to a secondary education. This was something that goes back to, you know, before, before Reagan. This goes back before Carter. And ultimately, you know, the federal government decided to underwrite student debt and at a massive scale with unique underwriting policies. And it’s also an interesting thing to underwrite, given that the asset backing, underwriting this loan, is your brain. So that’s, it wasn’t right or wrong that we made college more accessible. It just it happened. Another let’s say there are kind of like four major chapters. One is kind of that decision that, yes, we should make it easier for everyone to go to go to school. Two is kind of just the general cost, which is kind of like a chicken and egg thing, because money is basically free for universities, and there are no checks and balances. So as they can take more money, grow administrations like they’ll take it all day long. And so the cost of education didn’t really matter. They don’t really care that. So our benefit is interesting. Companies can pay up to $5,250 tax free to their employees loans. That was based in 1986 cost of an average semester of college. Like it is dramatically changed in the last 30 or 40 years, how the cost of education has just become insane. A third piece is kind of the federal government’s underwriting process. You know, when I took on a loan for the first time, I was in business school, and I knew exactly what I was going to do with this money that I was spending on getting educated. You sign a piece of paper and you get 20 grand your checking account, like it blew my mind. Like that was it like, no cosine, no anything, no like test I need to take. So I think the underwriting processes are are interesting. And then another reason why things have gotten really bad is that, which is a tough one, is that the general kind of belief or truth that college or education does create upward mobility. You know, on average, like blanketly, you do want a really good higher education system in your country, because it does generally equate to more prosperous life, more success, money, whatever it is. So I think, but at the same time not taking the hard truth and the hard look at things like, is this on an individual basis the necessary thing for me to do? I know I just rambled at you, but I’d say those are kind of the four principle chapters of how did we get here? Why did this happen?

Curt Widhalm 17:03
A lot of the discussion that we hear in our community is about how the loan process is predatory. A lot of the universities, because money is free, can raise tuition costs. And some of the things that you’re talking about are kind of on these more societal level numbers, and in general, do people tend to be pretty poor at translating some of those societal numbers down to their own individual abilities to apply that to themselves into their future.

Mick MacLaverty 17:42
There’s a big trend going on now regarding individuals at a young age being financially literate, and I think it’s something that is never really taught in schools. It’s something that is never brought to the forefront, unless your parents brought it to your forefront, right? There’s no like, class you take in fourth grade, or, you know, eighth grade or in high school that teaches you financial accounting and what you should and should not do. So that’s like, kind of one piece of it. I think now people are realizing that should either change or they’re, I do also semi-believe that back when the dollar amounts were a bit lower, taking on a loan was kind of the education in itself. Taking on a loan that you knew you could pay back. And the math kind of worked out. The math, maths, as they say, 20, 3040, years ago, the math kind of worked out. And so you didn’t have to like, question the system of, do I have to like, is this loan gonna put me into financial disarray? That education in itself doesn’t really exist anymore, because I think people have lost a lot of trust in because the math doesn’t work out. You can’t go through that experience of learning. You’re just kind of thrown into the learned experience that it doesn’t work out. So I think something switched in the last 20-30, years. You know, there probably wasn’t a specific focal point of when the math stopped working on average. But you know, there’s a balance between education is going through the thing on your own and learning from experience, and now, because the math doesn’t really work out, maybe there is some sort of like mandatory financial literacy piece that has to happen to everyone at a younger age. I don’t know if that completely answers your question, but generally speaking, I think there has been kind of a shift from like, learn via experience to now like, oh, we actually have to educate people on financial literacy.

… 19:56
(Advertisement Break)

Katie Vernoy 19:57
It almost seems like a secret handshake. Think that parents teach children, if you have financial literacy, then you teach it to your kids, but it’s not really common knowledge. I think there’s cultural differences on how money is seen, and so there’s so much that I think leads to the decision making around whether someone takes on student loan debt. It feels even more specific for our profession. And I don’t know if this is something that you’re aware of, Mick, but I think there’s this element where there are some programs that feel more financially approachable, they have different ways they’re run, that I was fortunate to get into one of those programs, and it was also a million years ago, so the math was mathing. But I think there was this element of, we know that there is a shortage of mental health providers, or it feels like a shortage, even though some folks think that there’s not that there’s a mental health shortage, and there’s not really capacity for folks to go into these more reasonably priced programs. And so there’s so many programs that are hugely expensive, private programs that are hugely expensive. And so I think that’s where folks get stuck, is that I can either be a therapist and take on hundreds of 1000s of dollars worth of debt, or I don’t get to be a therapist. There’s not really another option. And so they’re stuck with this thing that doesn’t work, and move forward and just kind of get used to the idea that I will be paying off my student loan debt for the rest of my life, as Curt was mentioning before. And so it feels very daunting. It feels like a huge sacrifice, which you know, as mental health professionals, we’re pretty self sacrificial, so maybe that feeds something. But it it feels like a really awful problem for us to be in. I mean, Curt and I talk about, from our angle, how do you make a more livable wage? How do you help on the back end, get to that more consistent income that looks more like something where you can pay down your student loan debt, but I don’t think that’s sufficient for the gravity of the problem that we’re facing in our profession.

Mick MacLaverty 22:20
Yeah, I don’t, I agree with pretty much everything you’re saying. It’s, it’s a challenge. I mean, there’s no right answer. Every situation is unique too. It’s a challenge. It’s also not alone. There are other industries that are that are very similar. There are other industries too that there are other solutions that are even worse sometimes. So you know, you can have someone pay for your school and then they take a piece of your profits for the next, like, 30 years of your life, that’s another option. So like there are, there are other things that you know, it’s never as bad as you think it is. It’s never as good as you think it is. There are always, everyone’s in their own financial issues pending what they have signed up for what they want to do. Yes, therapy generally, I mean, the statistics I read off to you earlier are pretty damning. But again, like there are some ones that are worse, like physical therapy on average, or occupational therapy on average is a little bit worse. They take on average of, like, $150,000 or $140,000 of debt. So 60k more on average per therapists. So this isn’t to say the problem doesn’t exist, because it definitely does, but I think in collective understanding and individuals kind of coming together and sharing their experiences, I think there are ways to kind of get out of debt. I think there are ways to think about it, maybe more as you’re in school. And I think you know, knowledge is power. So knowledge sharing is huge across any industry. So I think people should not be, there should be no stigma about student debt. You should talk about it. What are my options? How can I navigate through this?

Katie Vernoy 24:05
I think the other part of the Zeitgeist that we haven’t really talked about directly, but have alluded to a little bit: in some of the administration changes, there was discussion of student loan forgiveness, and then there was kind of the political divide around whether or not that was fair. And I don’t know if you have any comments on it, but I think that I don’t want to leave that out of the conversation, because it feels like this is also an emotionally charged and or politically charged topic where trying to find solutions for student loan debt or trying to find options that don’t accrue so much debt seem to be thrown around without a lot of information and a lot of, not a lot of knowledge.

Mick MacLaverty 24:51
Yeah, I definitely can talk, I could talk about this specifically for like, four and a half hours. But the the, it’s a very interesting thing is that student debt is political, in the sense that either political party can attach themselves to it and get votes. So people don’t know this, but actually, like George Bush, Republican Party created a lot of these public service forgiveness plans. So it was a Republican, it was it was their thing, and then forgiveness became a democratic thing, like student debt is a thing, and it’s kind of like, who is going to grab it first, and different parties can grab it at different times, you know? So that’s one thing that people should acknowledge, is that this isn’t a Republican or Democrat thing. It is a thing that either party can grab based on whatever you know election year it is. So that’s one thing to note. Two, it’s unfortunate, because this should not, these are people’s lives. This should not be a political thing. There should be more transparency about what people should be doing with student debt. So for instance, you know, from our perspective, student debt was never going to be canceled. There’s no way. People have tried it forever. It’s at the time when we started our company, there was almost 10 ish trillion dollars of federal budget deficit at the time, so student debt accounted for 15% of the whole federal budget deficit. The federal government can’t just let their balance sheet go out the window. Like they need the money. You can’t just, like, wash away 15% of your of your debt. It’s just you need that revenue. So if you think about it like that, that’s one thing, and then two, you know, it has to go through Congress. They have the power of the purse. You can’t just broad sweep and give forgiveness to people, because Congress touches the money like, that’s how that’s just how it works. So from our perspective, we knew it would never really happen.

… 26:54
(Advertisement Break)

Mick MacLaverty 26:54
The unfortunate piece is that it kept getting discussed and that it like potentially would happen. And so instead of people paying off, when loans were paused for three years and no interest was accruing on debt and interest rates were zero for all intents and purposes, every dollar you paid back to your loan was going to the principle of the loan, people could have gotten out of debt, like, what years and 10s of 1000s of dollars less paid interest, had this promise of student debt being forgiven just not happened. So, you know, it’s things like that that that should have been more highly discussed. Like, if you pay off your loan now there’s no interest accruing, and there’s no there are no payments due if you and you know, and also maybe refi instead of a 7-8% you know, student loan, you can refi it 2-3% 4% and so you’re chipping off your interest payments by a lot when the debt does resume. So I’m rambling again, but my point is that I don’t love that student debt has become a pseudo politicized thing because you’re really messing with people’s financials. And what we should be doing is educating people on stuff like that, like refi to get a lower rate, pay down your debt when no interest is due, because the money is going to the principal, which reduces the actual balloon of the debt. Things like that are what should be talked about. Instead it’s kind of like, you know, whatever’s clickbaity and you want to spread on the news. Those are my without getting too deep into it, those are my general thoughts on on forgiveness and stuff like that. But there are good policies like Public Service Loan Forgiveness, income driven repayment plans, which are going to get whittled down to just a few here. But there are still some good things that federal policy has put in place over the last 20 years that help people reduce their burden.

Curt Widhalm 28:57
For people who don’t have the opportunity to get educated before they take out loans such as those who are currently paying off and delaying major life events such as buying homes and marriage and having kids in some cases. Do you have other suggestions on how people can really take control of their financial situations?

Mick MacLaverty 29:21
Yeah, there are a lot of options. It depends on kind of where you are in your education journey, whether you’re, you know, 18 year old who’s about to take on a loan for the first time, or whether you’re, you know, 45 and you’ve been paying off your debt for the last 20 plus years. There are different things you could do. So, one is, you know, way, let’s say you’ve taken on a loan, way, refinancing your debt versus the federal programs to reduce, to reduce your payments. You know, refinancing can get you a lower rate, which can reduce your monthly but then you have to pay it every month. First, if you hold a federal loan, maybe you qualify for certain programs that can reduce your monthly payment, but you may be paying for a longer. So that’s like, you know, there are only decisions. There’s no right thing to do. It’s just kind of opportunity cost of what’s right for that person. You know, there are other services and things you can do, like collective bargaining for student loans. There are companies that help people basically form together and go back to the underwriters and say, Hey, look at our bucket of loans. We’d like collectively a lower rate. That’s an interesting thing to do. You know what we do at Highway is employer driven plans. So we help companies. People don’t know this, but companies can actually help pay off your student debt, and every dollar they contribute, it’s actually tax free income for you, the employee, up to $5,250. So your employer can actually help you with this problem. It’s also tax free for your company, they don’t pay payroll taxes on any of the contribution dollars. There are a handful of things you can do. We’d love to help, obviously, and we do. We work with a lot of healthcare tangential businesses. We call them, so therapy related businesses. There’s no right answer, but I think it’s you know where you are in your journey. Are you just taking on a loan? Okay. Like, let’s be educated. Let’s think about this. Are there things I can do while I’m in school to help pay off that debt? Two, I’ve already paid my loan. Should I be refinancing? Should I look at these collective bargaining things. And then three other sources of repayment, outside of yourself, your company, your employer, can actually help you get out of debt years ahead of time, paying 10s of 1000s of dollars less in interest. So I think it’s just learning, doing the research and thinking of alternate sources to help you reduce that that payment.

Katie Vernoy 31:44
So tell us more about what the specific plan that you help folks implement. Because I think that when we talked about it before, you know, few weeks ago, it was very interesting. I had never heard about it in kind of the loan repayment thing. I’ve heard folks talk about upfront, that same 5,200 whatever dollar amounts people can get help going to school. But I hadn’t heard about this loan repayment benefit.

Mick MacLaverty 32:11
Yeah. So, so we fall under Section 127 of the IRS Code. So in 2020 the federal government actually made what we do tax free. You’ve probably heard about tuition reimbursement. So if you want to go to school, your company can reimburse you up to 5,250. In 2020, the federal government, what we do part of section 127, and actually the new bill, the new tax bill, actually made what we do permanent. So going forward and they’re going to increase the limit every year based on inflation. And so what we do is we work with companies and organizations, a lot of private practices who are trying to attract and retain their employees. We are an employee benefit. Given specific industries like yours, I mean, this is a huge topic. This is something that is on the minds of, like I said, 80% of clinicians. And so when it comes to attracting employees, or, you know, helping retain those employees, helping contribute to their student debt in a tax free way, is huge. And so what we do is we help companies set up their 127 plans so that they’re compliant with the IRS in order to roll the benefit out. And then what we do is we administer the benefit. So we move money from company into the employees loan servicers, so the employees don’t pocket the cash and go run off and do stuff with it. We make sure that the money goes to the desired location, and we basically make it seamless as possible for companies to set this benefit up. It’s a great recruiting tool. You can, you know, market it, and we like to tell people that if you don’t offer the benefit, how many of your top and funnel prospects you’re trying to hire aren’t even looking at you. There are also different ways to make it cost effective as well. So that’s that’s high level what we do at Highway.

Curt Widhalm 34:08
If you could give one piece of advice to our listeners today that can make things kind of an actionable step if they’re working for themselves, kind of self employed people who are still dealing with their own student loan debt. What would you advise them to do?

Mick MacLaverty 34:26
Call your servicer? Probably. I mean, these servicers you can think of as or call your loan holder. You’re entitled to speak with them, and they’re knowledgeable. This is their business. They hold your loan. You should see what other options you have. You should see when your payments are due. I think you have to think that work with them instead of against them. That’s probably step one. Start at the root. Who has your loan? Call your servicer, the reps there actually they kind of, they know what they’re doing. They know different options you may or may not have, but I think that’s a really good place to start.

Curt Widhalm 35:04
Where can people find out more about you and your all the wonderful things that you’re doing?

Mick MacLaverty 35:12
Yeah. Highwaybenefits.com Come check us out. We would love to help you again. Our benefit is is for more for companies, obviously, but we do have some resources and a whole blog of different articles that could help individual loan holders as well, just learn more about student debt and different options they may have. But yeah, we’d love to have people come visit us. Highwaybenefits.com and if you’re interested in learning more, we’d love to chat,

Curt Widhalm 35:41
And we will include a link to that in our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com. And make sure that you follow us on our social media. Join our Facebook group, the Modern Therapist Group, to continue on with this conversation, as well as many others. And until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Mick MacLaverty.

… 36:00
(Advertisement Break)

Announcer 36:02
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter, and please don’t forget to subscribe so you don’t miss any of our episodes.