Does Your Social Media Make You Look Like a Bad Therapist?
Curt and Katie chat about therapists putting out advice on social media. We look at how bad this advice can be and when it can even be harmful. We talk about what makes this advice bad and what to do instead.
Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.
Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.
In this podcast episode we talk about therapist influencers giving advice on social media
We look at really bad relationship advice that seems to proliferate on social media by therapist influencers.
Why is the advice oftentimes bad from therapists on social media?
“The folks who are really good at identifying their niche, identifying who it is that they’re talking to, and what issues they’re addressing, folks who are both doing therapy and doing coaching around the same topic… move into that kind of influencer space of ‘I’m going to say the thing that speaks directly to my ideal client.’ But out of context [this advice] could be very harmful for someone who is not [your ideal client]. And although the algorithms do help a little bit, they also theoretically could be sending your wonderful, wonderful content to someone where it is exactly the wrong advice and/or could be weaponized against someone like your client.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Micro-validation of what clients are already believing about themselves or their partners
- Lack of context and very specific related to your target client (but seen by all folks)
- Focusing on the people around the person reading the post, rather than the reader themselves
- Single posts that go viral or reach wider audiences may be misconstrued or taken out of context
What is the potential for harm for the therapy profession?
- Bad advice = bad therapist, which can be generalized to all therapists
- Harmful advice can lead to harm in the wider population
- Saying that you’re speaking for all of mental health (when it is actually not grounded in the evidence base)
- It is hard to distill nuanced information in very short timeframes
What should therapists do to improve their social media posts?
- Citing sources rather than standing out as a sole expert
- Grounding self in the evidence base or recognized psychological knowledge
- Talking to clients about what they can do, rather than how to judge the people around them
- Designing the content to be engaging, but also tie back to longer form content that can have more nuance and context
- Each post has to stand alone, with sufficient context
- Identifying questions or considerations for folks to look at (versus definitive statements)
What are the concerns with therapists being too limited with what they share on social media?
“I think that we can fall into the trap of confusing the popularity of a site with the legitimacy of the messages that are being put on it.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Not providing information that can help folks in abusive relationships
- Coaches and “fake therapists” may be the only people in the space, putting out even worse advice
What are the characteristics of very bad social media advice?
“This [social media post] is giving bad advice to people to be perpetually unhealthy in relationships. Not to actually be able to identify: what’s the difference between hurt and abuse? How do you resolve hurt? What are safety steps that you can do to avoid abuse? So, giving one tool that is over exaggerated to something that is kind of conflated and mixed up from the very beginning.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Rigidity in perspective
- Equating hurt and abuse
- Overusing pop psychology terms like “trauma bond”
- Giving overarching, single tactic coping advice that can be harmful for many folks
- Putting things very definitively, without nuance related
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Who we are:
Curt Widhalm, LMFT
Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note:
Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:
Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):
Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 0:12
So this is an episode that’s maybe a little bit coming from a jaded place as far as the bad advice that we see on social media, by therapists.
Katie Vernoy 0:28
Really bad, bad advice.
Curt Widhalm 0:32
And, you know, within the context of today’s world, so I can encourage people to be on social media, especially with your profile page is advertising your practice this kind of stuff, but the slippery slope of what comes down to getting followers versus actually giving good credible advice. And you know, we’re going to talk mostly here about Instagram and TikTok, and that kind of stuff. But you know, if you’re still out there posting stuff on Tumblr, and Facebook, and those kinds of things…
Katie Vernoy 1:06
Curt Widhalm 1:07
And Twitter, this can apply there as well. But, you know, really, since I would say slightly before the COVID pandemic, but really the explosion during the pandemic of the number of mental health professionals, mostly licensed therapists, but a lot of people posing as licensed therapists, or just mental health coaches put a lot of information about mental health out to the broader world. In theory, this is a good idea. But if anybody has spent more than five seconds on the internet, you know that that also led to a lot of just garbage information that got put on the internet.
Katie Vernoy 1:47
Sure. And I think it’s something where there’s there’s the element of the different goals they had. There were some folks that were were wanting to spread awareness and help people during these dark times. There were some folks that were trying to get followers and become influencers. And there were some folks that were wanting to get clients, whether it was coaching or therapy clients. And I think those different goals actually play a part in how social media is used. But it was, it was definitely a very interesting time because it became more acceptable to talk about mental health, it became more acceptable to share tips and tricks, because we were all sitting at home, scrolling through our phones endlessly. And we’re dealing probably with some mental health concerns. But I think like you said, a lot of it ended up being garbage. We already have an episode talking about kind of the diagnosis trend, the self diagnosis trend. We’ll link to that in the show notes over at mtsgpodcast, but but you had a bee in your bonnet about bad advice that’s been given by therapists for quite some time.
Curt Widhalm 2:52
Yes. And where I tend to see this the most is therapists giving relationship advic. That whether it’s somebody do it a little TikTok dance pointing around at all the different texts that they’re going to add in later.
Katie Vernoy 3:08
And for those of you who can’t see Curt, he was actually doing the TikTok dance and pointing at things all around his room.
Curt Widhalm 3:13
I will add in the text on that afterwards. But as an example of this, I see these things pop up in my feed from time to time of therapists who will be like things that you should never accept in your relationship or signs that your ex is a narcissist. And, to me, these all fall into things that are micro validating to clients, or to people in general, especially if they’re not your clients. But don’t necessarily take into the higher standards of what we do as professionals, and as especially as what we do as licensed mental health professionals, because there is a lot more context of what we do in our practice and our work with clients that can’t be summed up in a 30 second, you know, thing wrapped over some fat beats by Timberland.
Katie Vernoy 4:12
Well, and I think the other thing too, is that it’s, it’s so out of context. I find that we are so good, those of us that are more and I shouldn’t say us because I don’t do this but the folks who are really good at identifying their niche, identifying who it is that they’re talking to and and what issues they’re addressing at folks who are both doing therapy and doing coaching around the same topic. So really, really strong niche, and then they move into that kind of influencer space of I’m going to say the thing that speaks directly to my ideal client, but out of context, could be very harmful for someone who is not and although the algorithms do help a little bit, but they also theoretically could be sending your wonderful, wonderful content to someone where it is exactly the wrong advice and/or could be weaponized against someone like your client.
Curt Widhalm 5:18
I’m gonna just kind of talk about like, you know, the, all of your exes aren’t narcissists posts here for a moment.That I tend to see from a variety of coaches, I tend to see this pop up in some of the clinicians sorts of standpoints. And part of putting this into the context of what’s therapy versus what’s coaching is, therapy makes it about the client. And when you are talking about, here’s somebody else, you know, that I’m speaking to you about somebody else to validate your experience, what we’re risking is, the mental health aspect of our sides is making something validating, but it’s not actually providing anything other than here’s a micro validation that proves that you’re right, without understanding any of the context of anything.
Katie Vernoy 6:09
Well, and I think it’s something where it, it’s, I like that point, because it’s your, you’re scrolling through, you’re feeling bad about the relationship you’re in, and now someone who has some credentials after their name is saying, your ex, your current relationship is with a narcissist. And so then it’s like, Ah, so it’s all their fault. And it’s interesting, because in therapy we would go to, and how do you keep getting into these relationships with narcissists, and and talk about this, you know, kind of how you walk your way into these relationships. Which I think still couldn’t be a good real, because of some of the other pieces of advice. And we talked about therapy as a new religion and how selfish therapy is being seen as now too. So also, that link will be in the show notes as well. But I think there’s that element of, I don’t know you. But I act like I know you. I certainly don’t know your partner or any of your exes. But they’re a narcissist. And it’s it is it’s micro validating, but it also doesn’t put any responsibility on the person that scrolling through, it’s just like, Ah, thank goodness, it’s not me.
Curt Widhalm 7:26
And so, if we break it down that way, if we, you know, look at how the algorithm ends up putting out this information is that even if the rest of your profile history helps to be additive, and put things in context, the way that the algorithm works is people might find these in a very isolated situation, that then ends up portraying you as being at the risk of overly niched or overly, you know, representative of a very, very small context of what you’re trying to put out as a overall larger picture. And what that risks is that not only you as the individual, but as everybody else ends up being represented by Oh, you’re a therapist on Instagram, you’re just like, fill in the blank at therapy person online, who gives bad advice. So therefore, you are also a bad therapist.
Katie Vernoy 8:28
That was a lot of points all at once. So I want to break those down a little bit. So the first part is, even though you’re speaking to your niche, the algorithm may bring it wide, and it may be completely irrelevant or taken completely out of context. And so it could be bad advice in the wrong hands. It might be great advice for your niche, but because you can’t control it being just read, watched whatever, by your niche, you were at risk of giving very bad advice. And because you are now presenting yourself as a therapist on TikTok, Instagram, whatever, it is harming our profession. Is that what you’re saying?
Curt Widhalm 9:13
Katie Vernoy 9:14
All right. Okay. I just want to make sure because there was a lot there. So the thing I want to counterbalance that with a little bit is I do feel like as clinicians, that one of the ways that we can market, one of the ways that we can create side business and side hustles, so to speak, is through advocacy. It’s through support. It’s through information and teaching. And I think we can do that on social media. And so it becomes it becomes challenging to say like, well, I have a niche I want to speak to them. What do I do to not have this bad advice go viral, or this this good advice for one tiny group of people go viral and be bad advice for everyone else.
Curt Widhalm 10:05
This is going to be something that probably most people who post stuff don’t want to hear. But if you are speaking from the sole place of expertise, for example, you’re not citing where you’re getting your information from. You are putting yourself into this guru type position of a therapist is telling us what to do without necessarily being like, this is what it’s based on. So you’re falsely using your credentials in a way that has no relationship to the audience who’s seeing it. You’re not putting it into any sort of like, and the rest of our field agrees on this as well.
Katie Vernoy 10:47
Curt Widhalm 10:48
And so you’re kind of, you know, breaking through the wall and being like, here’s what all of Mental Health says when really, in fact, mental health doesn’t say a lot of the stuff that gets put out there. So what this is, is, you should put your, your citations, you should put your resources, you should put where you’re getting this information from. Because by putting out public statements like this, you should be prone to having to deal with criticism. You should be prone to having to deal with oh, there’s other information that refutes what you’re saying. I see this a lot in kind of, you know, the, the dating sphere of both sides, you know, this is all sides of, you know, kind of dating, whether it’s, you know, tips for guys, tips for women on seeking out, you know, here’s how you get a high value partner. Again, this is information about who you’re trying to attain, rather than about any sort of healthy things that you can bring to a relationship. And what this does is, it doesn’t reach the intended effect of helping people to improve. It, what it does is it guides people towards, here’s somebody with some credentials, that’s telling me what to do, I should follow that without necessarily addressing any of my own specific factors, exactly like you mentioned earlier.
Katie Vernoy 12:10
So it’s citing sources, it’s trying to make sure that you’re actually grounding yourself in whether it’s an evidence base or something that’s, that’s well recognized, and can be refuted, or or debated or whatever. And then it’s also if you’re talking to your niche, if you’re talking to a potential client, or someone in the world that can use your advice, talk to them about what they can bring versus how to judge the people around them.
Curt Widhalm 12:40
Katie Vernoy 12:41
Okay. Because I think there’s there’s just that caveat around, I have had some folks and maybe it wasn’t therapists. And maybe this isn’t the role of therapists. But I’ve I had, I’ve had some folks that were in fairly abusive relationships, that in being able to identify what their relationship and something that people were saying this is abusive, or this is a problem or that kind of stuff, like I feel like that did help them, they were started getting fed more and more content, whether it was your partner is a narcissist or whatever there was content that was like, here are the warning signs, here are the things that you need to pay attention to. And, and maybe there’s maybe there’s some nuance around, pay attention to these things. And this is how you set boundaries, or this is how you get yourself safe versus your partner is a horrible evil person. But to me, and maybe this is part of the debate here is if I am a therapist, and I have information, and I see a lot of my clients who are well meaning, big hearts, enter into relationships with people who either abusive or take advantage of them or whatever. It becomes hard to say like, Well, how do I get that information to them in 15 seconds? What are the things that could be helpful, that could potentially save lives? You know, and I think that’s this is this is where it’s hard to grapple with. Because that same advice, that same here are the warning signs that your partner is a bad person could be weaponized by, quote unquote, a narcissist. Right? Like I think that there are, are things that we have to worry about with this stuff. But I hesitate to be like, don’t say anything about another person, just talk to the person that you’re talking to, without, without us recognizing that, that we can help people to identify when a relationship is healthy or unhealthy. I think we’d have to just be thoughtful about it. When we’re trying to give relationship advice. There’s this element of we don’t know the person we’re talking to, although they may be our our ideal client. We don’t know their partner, although we may have seen it a million times. So besides citing the source, and maybe making sure you’re talking about things that you’re that the person, the consumer, or the the follower, the listener, the watcher, whatever it is, can do, it feels still like this, this place where I don’t want to say, you know, I don’t want to be the old person doing Get off my lawn, stop doing social media, like I want it to be something where we still have this ability to be able to disseminate really good information. And so, so give me an example of some really bad advice and how you would shift it, maybe that’s maybe we can do that. Or maybe we can work on it together. But like, what is some really bad advice that you’ve seen on the interwebs, that has made you want to scream and throw your phone.
Curt Widhalm 15:38
I do want to go to one of the points that you just made, as far as like, it’s really hard to do this in 15 seconds, or 30 seconds, or whatever it is, as a professional to put this stuff out. And part of being a professional is recognizing that if it’s too hard to do it, you just don’t do it. Like, if you can’t, if you can’t do it well, that’s part of what makes us the professionals is that we present information in ways where the entire meaning of what we’re trying to put out there gets put out there and is able to be received.
Katie Vernoy 16:10
So then your your idea is, let’s evacuate the space, and let the coaches and the fake therapists put their information out and don’t even try to get in there at all.
Curt Widhalm 16:23
you have a responsibility to speak to the truth as our profession agrees on it. And if you can’t do that in a way, then you know, don’t do it. It’s, it’s a hard pill to swallow when it comes to things that are very popular like Instagram, or TikTok, or this kind of stuff where a lot of people do exist, but maybe putting it in the context of how many therapists are out there on Parlor or Truth Social media trying to put out there this information. Or if we’re picking a smaller social media platform where it’s, you know, not as many people are posting stuff, then you wouldn’t want to go in there and post things within those very limited contexts where things could be misunderstood. I think that we can fall into the trap of confusing the popularity of a site with the legitimacy of the messages that are being put on it. To your point of if that means vacating it and letting coaches and whoever else put it in, my opinion, that’s fine, because then we as a profession can be like, Yeah, we don’t engage in that crap. This is one of the ways that we show that.
Katie Vernoy 17:33
I don’t think that as a whole that all of the millions of therapists or the hundreds 1000s of therapists will be like, Yeah, I’m off. I’m off TikTok, no more #TikToktherapist. I don’t think that’s happening. So I think it’s, it’s something where, to me, I feel like there could be a middle ground of, maybe you don’t put the information in the 15 seconds or the 30 seconds, you put something that introduces it as a hook, so to speak. And in the post, in a longer blog post or something that you’re able to tie back to a YouTube video that you can tie back to, you actually get to a little bit more of a nuanced conversation. But I also think it’s about designing the content. I mean, in in designing the content, if you’re trying to cover every single thing that can happen in an abusive relationship in 30 seconds, I think you’ve missed the mark, I think that you get a point. And that’s it, if that. And so I think part of it is really trying to look at what is it that you’re putting out there and assess it from all different angles. If your client were to see it, if your clients partner would see it, if your clients parents were to see it. You know, if your if your own parents were to see it. You talk about the how many eyes supervision seven eyes supervision, yeah, maybe this is seven eyes, social media, like if everybody’s looking at this from all different angles, what can it mean, and how can you mitigate that? I mean, I think certainly the this, this doesn’t replace therapy and blah, blah, blah. I think that is insufficient, but necessary. But I think there’s another element of, can you put some caveats in can you claim who you’re talking to at the beginning? I think there’s ways to do this and not just vacate the space, I guess, is what I’m saying.
Curt Widhalm 19:23
So here’s an example of one that stands out to me.
Katie Vernoy 19:26
Curt Widhalm 19:27
So this is from an LPC. “If you’re still helping someone who has hurt you, you’re still in the trauma bond.”
Katie Vernoy 19:34
Okay, so that seems pretty concrete, and rigid.
Curt Widhalm 19:40
So that is what the graphic says, and, you know, within the caption underneath it, and it’s followed by a bunch of hashtags. A trauma bond is like an addiction, the only way to free yourself of it is to stay away from the person who abused you. Okay, so to me, I’m going to interrupt what I’m reading here. Is someone has hurt? And now that’s abuse?
Katie Vernoy 20:03
Curt Widhalm 20:04
So now we’re conflating and, you know, you’re accusing me of splitting hairs here.
Katie Vernoy 20:11
I don’t, I don’t think you’re splitting hairs here. I actually, I’m actually with you on this one. So continue your point.
Curt Widhalm 20:16
So this this one is sliding into, okay, because you’ve been hurt, you’ve been abused, and you must stay away. So there’s no nuance towards what’s the difference between hurt and abuse. There’s no, and the next logical steps of this is, if your only response in relationships where you have been hurt is to abandon them. This is giving bad advice to people to be perpetually unhealthy in relationships, not to actually be able to identify, what’s the difference between hurt and abuse? How do you resolve hurt? What are safety steps that you can do to avoid abuse. So just giving one tool that is over exaggerated to something that is kind of conflated and mixed up from the very beginning.
Katie Vernoy 21:06
Well, and I think the other piece that I experienced kind of, viscerally, when you read that is so hurt, I can I can hurt you, right? You can also feel hurt by something I did. And I think it also conflates those two things, right. And I think some of this is like intention and all of that stuff. And I’m not trying to have an argument around intention versus impact. But I think that there is something where when someone’s own traumatic material means that they’re consistently hurt by other people, or if they have rejection sensitivity dysphoria, or if there is something where they are consistently feeling hurt by other people. This is saying, if you’re hurt, cut everybody off. And I think that that is hard, because there are a lot of different reasons that we feel hurt. And there’s a lot of different reasons that we get hurt. And there’s, there’s stages of healing, even within traumatic relationships that I think can allow for someone to be in a relationship with someone that has hurt them or abused them. You know, there’s a lot of healing work to get there. I’m not saying everyone can do that. But I don’t think that saying that every abusive relationship needs to be cut off, as if they’re all the same and remain in the same space. Like, I agree, that’s really very, very rigid. It’s not nuanced at all. And it’s bad advice.
Curt Widhalm 22:35
Looking at the rest of this profile, this therapist does speak a lot about being in narcissistic abuse relationships. But this is just kind of the point of, unless you expect the reader or the consumer of the content to go and seek out the rest of the content, you’re left with the opportunity of people misinterpreting the overall message of what you’re doing with what you’re talking about. And so this is why each post needs to be considered as How can this be seen by anybody?
Katie Vernoy 23:11
Yeah. It needs to stand alone, it needs to be a full message. And so is there an underlying message here that we can parse out? That could have been said in a better way? Or do you think that this message is just bad advice all the way around?
Curt Widhalm 23:30
There’s a bunch of stuff that this thing is trying to do way too small.
Katie Vernoy 23:36
Curt Widhalm 23:37
So, you know, to read it again, “If you’re still helping someone who has hurt you, you’re still in the trauma bond.”
Katie Vernoy 23:45
Okay, so it’s talking to you and saying you’re doing something so they checked it, the first piece of advice that you have, but it’s it’s it’s very, very small. And it’s very, very definitive about something that’s very nuanced and doesn’t think. So part of it would be, what is abuse? Or what is abusive?
Curt Widhalm 24:05
Or even if you’re still trying to speak to somebody, it’s questions to ask yourself when you’re helping people who have hurt you.
Katie Vernoy 24:15
Hmm. Okay, I like that. So keep to keep talking. Keep talking. I love it. I love it.
Curt Widhalm 24:19
I mean, I’m coming up with this, this kind of stuff off the spot. But what we’re trying to do is, if this is actual advice, to get people to grow, then great, give advice about growth, don’t put things into kind of this one snippet that makes it as kind of a statement of fact.
Katie Vernoy 24:39
Okay, I like that. I think that’s something where I think I organically do that when I’m writing is, you know, here are the questions to ask yourself or here the things to consider? It’s not, you are in a horribly abusive relationship. It’s, let’s look at this. What do you think about that? What are some things you might consider. Now, some folks might argue that is way less likely to go viral.
Curt Widhalm 25:08
Good, the number of likes does not change the validity of it.
Katie Vernoy 25:12
Sure. But I think there’s there’s we go back to the goals of social media. One is to be an influencer. One is to get coaching clients,
Curt Widhalm 25:21
Oh, so now we’re moving…
Katie Vernoy 25:23
…relationships, one’s to get a client.
Curt Widhalm 25:25
Now we’re moving the goalposts. This isn’t about providing mental health information out there. This is about us using our credentials to benefit ourselves.
Katie Vernoy 25:35
Sure. And I think that that’s a valid use of our credentials, like we…
Curt Widhalm 25:39
Katie Vernoy 25:41
Yes, it is. We we use our credentials to benefit ourselves all the time. We both of us get paid to do therapy, both of us have gotten paid to do consulting. We, at some point, if we ever get enough Patreon folks or sponsorships, we will get paid to do this podcast. What do you mean, it’s not? We can’t use our credentials to benefit ourselves? Why else would we get credentials if we couldn’t benefit ourselves in any way? That’s a step too far.
Curt Widhalm 26:15
You’re, you’re taking what I’m saying and you’re misapplying it.
Katie Vernoy 26:20
Curt Widhalm 26:20
When we’re making public statements and this kind of stuff, that we have to be honest about what we’re doing about it. That’s why when we do, you know, have our sponsors at the beginning of this episode, sponsored by so and so, you know, we’re…
Katie Vernoy 26:36
Sure, we have to make affiliate statements, so we have affiliates. And people will do that. I’m just saying that if someone also has this other business of being an influencer, and all that stuff, they also need to do good social media. So are they are they stuck not using their therapy credentials?
Curt Widhalm 26:56
There you go. That’s what it is. That’s what it is.
Katie Vernoy 26:59
Okay, so you’re saying, as a profession, we can’t be influencers?
Curt Widhalm 27:04
Katie Vernoy 27:04
…it’s very short sighted.
Curt Widhalm 27:06
I’m saying that when people make public statements on social media, you have an ethical responsibility to understand how that information can be received. And my my concern under all of this as a person steeped in ethics is a lot of these posts don’t do that.
Katie Vernoy 27:30
Fair enough. I know we’re running out of time. So it sounds like we may have to have another conversation about therapist influencers. But for now, what I’m taking is talk to talk to the person don’t, don’t help them. Don’t micro validate them about everyone in their lives. Certainly don’t tell them to cut everybody off in their lives, because that’s not cool. Cite your sources, try to speak to the evidence base, don’t try to fit something into 15 to 30 seconds that is not able to be explained and understood by a broad audience in 15 to 30 seconds. And remember that you have an ethical responsibility to not make public statements that would be harmful to the public. And I think we that’s those are the points that we have time for today. I think that’s what we got.
Curt Widhalm 28:25
You can find our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com. Follow us on our social media, where we mostly just kind of post stuff about our episodes, but…
Katie Vernoy 28:36
We’re not good influencers at all.
Curt Widhalm 28:38
Join our Facebook group, the Modern Therapists group if you want to continue this conversation. As Katie said, If you like our content, please consider supporting us on Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee and until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
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