Is CBT Crap?

Is CBT Crap?

Curt and Katie talk about evidence-based practices, clinician training, and when even the evidence base can go wrong.

It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.

In this episode we talk about:

  • How we know better than the evidence
  • The need for evidence-based practice in community mental health
  • Funding, efficiency, and diagnosis
  • The difference between the clientele in public mental health and private practice
  • Evidence-based practices pros and cons
  • The science, the efficacy, replicability of EBPs
  • The pros and cons of EBPs in community mental health
  • The need to include individual factors in EBPs
  • EBPs versus relational style (and how they may not be mutually exclusive)
  • The question about personality characteristics of CBT therapists
  • The opinion about rapport being missing from EBPs
  • How training jumps to EBP, to the detriment of the relationship
  • The problem with people who overuse or oversimplify the need for each orientation
  • Strong clinical orientation versus the “eclectic” or “integrative” psychotherapy
  • The Medical Model
  • The challenge of training therapists in relational skills and how to be a better therapist, rather than teaching specific handful of skills
  • The importance of proving efficacy, getting funding for services
  • Treatment decision-making and collaboration in public mental health versus private practice
  • The complexity of actual clients and the need for more than just one EBP to use for treatment
  • The problems with new clinician training related to EBPs

Resources mentioned:

We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below are affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!

Dr. Scott Miller: Feedback Informed Treatment

Dr. Ben Caldwell

Modern Community Mental Health: An Interdisciplinary Approach by Kenneth Yeager, David Cutler, Dale Svendsen, and Grayce M. Sills

Relevant Episodes:

Therapist Know Thyself

Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group

Therapy Reimagined 2019

Our consultation services:

The Fifty-Minute Hour

Who we are:

Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at:

Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at:

A Quick Note:

Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.

Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.

Stay in Touch:

Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group


Voice Over by DW McCann

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano

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