Partners of Therapists
Curt and Katie chat about how our job and training can impact our partners. We look at the benefits like emotional intelligence, resilience, and perspective. We also look at the challenges therapists and their partners face when trying to navigate being in relationship while one partner is navigating this career. Suggestions about how to navigate conversations and confidentiality as well as possibilities for improving relationships are discussed.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.Transcript
In this episode we talk about partners of therapists:
- The impact of being a therapist on long-term relationships/partnerships
- The insight into people and relationships that can be a benefit of partnering with a therapist
- Expecting that the therapist will be the expert or do the emotional lifting
- The concern that therapists overanalyze their relationships (don’t therapize me!)
- Therapists breaking down characters in movies and books and ruining things for our partners
- Positive communication and being able to navigate challenging conversations
- The desire to talk about the relationship more frequently than our partners
- The potential of differences when you start a relationship as a therapist or whether you start prior to becoming a therapist
- Using our training to do what “successful couples” do
- What might be different if one were to approach dating or starting relationships later
- The challenge of not being able to talk about work at the end of the day (confidentiality)
- Specific parameters around how to talk about one’s day (process versus content)
- When partners aren’t part of our field, they don’t understand how our field works or what our job entails
“When everyone at the table is having a hard time, it’s hard to understand why therapists are so ‘done’ at the end of the day when we’re just sitting and talking to people.” — Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- The difficulty of processing trauma, countertransference, empathy fatigue
- Gaps in the relationships with our partners related to partners not being able to process and handle challenging material
- The challenge of leaving work at work, being able to relate to other people at the end of the day
- The impact of the pandemic on childcare and balance of parenting and coparenting
- Therapist dissociation and self-care
- When our profession is overtaxed and we are overtaxed, our partners and kids can get pushed to the side
- What therapists’ partners might need to be successful in these relationships
- The lack of resources and resilience during the pandemic
“Some of these balances, especially during the pandemic, have been even greater heightened, because even though we’re physically present more, we’re not any more emotionally present unless we intentionally take some steps to help figure out that balance or recalibrate with our partners. — Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- The difficulty those who are in relationships with therapists understanding that they are human and that we are not always able to cope.
- How our knowledge and resourcefulness can help with us taking care of ourselves and meeting the needs of our partners
- The gratitude and love that we can share with our partners when we see how things go wrong
- Our capacity to have challenging conversations to improve relationships
- Emotional intelligence and perspective, self-awareness
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:
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Who we are:
Curt Widhalm, LMFT
Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note:
Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy:
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community:
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:
Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):
Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).
… 0:00
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Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm, and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 0:12
Welcome back modern therapists, this is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast that talks about all of the things that come up for therapists, things in our work life, things in our personal life. And Katie and I have been talking about doing an episode like this for a while. And while neither one of us could convince our actual partners to join us on the podcast, we did want to do an episode about how our training, our jobs affects the relationships with the people that we are with. And we’ve explored this a little bit in the past, as far as some of our episodes on dating as a therapist, or those kinds of ideas that focus a little bit more on maybe before your long term relationships with people. And this episode, is kind of a gathering of ideas and stories and observations that we’ve had about people who’ve been in long term relationships with therapists. And we’re not talking necessarily about people who are, you know, married to another therapist, that’s just a lot of weirdness that we didn’t really get into in our research with this. That might be a future episode here. But really talking about those relationships with people who are not therapists themselves, or in a different profession, something like that. We posted a question about this in our Modern Therapists group. And we’ll share some of the observations from our community here as well. But Katie, what are you sensing as some of the themes of these discussions?
Katie Vernoy 1:56
Well, I think the most positive part because I feel like we, we have a lot of things that are very…
Curt Widhalm 2:03
This is a positive sandwich, we’re gonna go positive critical at the end of the episode on positive so…
Katie Vernoy 2:08
All right, so the first slice of positive is insight that therapists have into relationships, into emotions I saw. And when I asked my husband, it was this too. It was, you know, I, I’ve learned about people who are different than me that I don’t necessarily, I don’t know that I necessarily would have had that experience and getting insight into people and relationships and that kind of stuff. There were definitely folks who mentioned that in the group. And that was also my experience is that there’s this nice, lovely, hey, you’re an expert, and I’m listening to you. And I’m taking this wonderful thing and applying it to my life and kind of the benefits of, not necessarily the benefits of therapy, but of clinical knowledge being applied in their lives. And that seems, that seems lovely and wonderful. And it leads very specifically into, I think, two different pieces of feedback, which we’re expecting to be the expert on these things, and always in the therapist role. And I’ve seen this both in people who are in these long term marriages, or relationships or other types of arrangements or with friends, but people are like, you’re a therapist, you’re supposed to be the expert, you’re supposed to be perfect in this way, as well as kind of having to do the kind of emotional lifting in the relationship.
Curt Widhalm 3:39
And a lot of us have been told this as advice from very early on in our careers. You know, don’t be your partner’s therapist. And I know that sometimes, you know, we also hear from our partners like the other half of this, you know, stop therapizing. Stop analyzing every single thing that I say. I think that does lead to us having more of a focus on some of the relationships just based on the way that we look at a lot of the training that we do, a lot of the work that we put in is we spend our days breaking down the processes for people of how they communicate, how they interact with the world. And some of the feedback that I received was, that this might also be where we take that a little bit too far. We start breaking down, you know, people’s relationships or their depths in things like movies and books way more than our partners ever want to discuss. That, you know, we might be watching something that’s, you know, not the greatest of TV shows, I’m thinking, you know, getting sucked into the drama of, you know, the real housewives or something and just kind of over analyzing their relationships. But it is something that’s a very positive work skill for us and it can be used very positively in our relationships with partners who are wanting to have an appropriate balance of that. Of both being able to engage in looking at your relationship together, being able to talk about things, being able to have healthy confrontations, which we heard from a number of people responding in our group here. And it’s when it becomes kind of that imbalance, that there’s a lot of emphasis there that feels like more emotional lifting. That, you know, we’ve spent 6, 7, 8 hours out of the day doing this with our clients to then turn around and have to continue to do that emotional lifting with our partners can foster some major relational imbalances here.
Katie Vernoy 5:46
Yeah, yeah, I think there’s, there’s a few different things that you’re talking about. So I kind of want to, to lay some of them out. I think one is this fascination that we have around how people work, how relationships work. And I think if our partners just aren’t into that, I think there can be that conflict there. But if they are, it could be interesting to them. And so I think that one’s just kind of like, Okay, that’s interesting. Did you hear that people were like, getting really negative feedback, like stop analyzing things like that are not within the relationship, like just like movies or something?
Curt Widhalm 6:20
I haven’t. But I have heard from people throughout my career, people who come to me for advice, or just, you know, sharing things about their lives, even my friends, you know, just saying that their partners, like, you want to talk about our relationship all the time. And it’s something that can be burdensome for partners in, in that capacity.
Katie Vernoy 6:43
So it’s not necessarily just our fascination with how things work. But really, it’s about our needs navel gazing, so to speak, around our relationships, our wanting to dig into it. And I wonder, and I just had this thought while you were talking, because I was not a therapist for many of the first, you know, like, I’m trying to think I wasn’t a therapist, or even in psychology, when I first, I guess I was majoring in psychology. I met my husband in college. But like, I didn’t get married as a therapist. I was not a therapist, I didn’t think I was going to be a therapist when I got married. And so there wasn’t that expectation that was there. And so the way that we developed our relationship didn’t seem to have that in it, even when I was studying to be a therapist, and maybe it’s just my own personal style. But I think if you start a relationship as a therapist, and we had some folks talking about how hard it is to date as a therapist, obviously, we do have an episode on dating as a therapist, I don’t know that we got into that particular topic, we may have to circle back to that. But I think, I wonder if developmentally there’s, there’s different types of ways that it enters a relationship, if you start the relationship and you’re already a therapist, or if you don’t, you’re not a therapist when the relationship starts.
Curt Widhalm 8:02
So I got married, like, three weeks before I started my grad program. So like you was a psychology major and started dating. And we dated for several years before we got married. I remember especially going through like my couples and family therapy classes of like, oh, successful couples do this, let’s just do this. And that being a part of our relationship. And my wife went along with it. And we still practice a lot of those things today.
Katie Vernoy 8:29
Nice.
Curt Widhalm 8:30
I can only imagine what it would be like to start dating at this point in my career of being a therapist. But I would have to imagine that I would have higher expectations of people having done their own work in in this part of my relationship. And I think it’s just that not necessarily wanting to spend, you know, the amount of time of waiting for somebody to come along or or catch up and being able to look at how a relationship works that would be entering into a relationship later. We’re getting a little off topic as far as moving back into kind of the dating scene here.
Katie Vernoy 9:14
Sure, sure.
Curt Widhalm 9:16
And so I want to go back to some of these other responses that we have. And one of the very consistent themes that we see is not being able to talk about work at the end of the day. And having kind of a secrecy, one of our commenter’s partners that it was like you’re married to somebody who’s in the CIA, can’t talk about anything. And there’s a lot of work stuff that we have happen during the day that due to confidentiality reasons we don’t share. And even having a very limited way of being able to talk about our day. Remember this client that frustrates me, I had a bad session with them. For people who are very focused on talking about all of our relationships we don’t get to share in a lot of that with our partners. And that requires a lot of trust into not being able to really share all parts of our lives.
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Katie Vernoy 10:13
I think it can play out differently in different relationships, because I think for me, having specific parameters around how a day is talked about. What’s most important to me, and what’s most important to my partner. I think oftentimes, if you’re able to say, okay, these are the things I can talk about, this is what’s most important for me. And this is mostly like when I was working at an agency, but it was more important for me to talk about whether or not I had a hard day, if it was something that was worrisome in a specific way, and what type of support I might need. Yes, I can’t process what exactly happened. And hopefully I have colleagues or supervisors or that kind of stuff to process the exact confidential event. But my response and the support that I’m needing, I think is, it’s much more important in my relationships with colleagues or with my supervisor, or my my supervisees. Like, those are the types of things that I find is actually more connecting. And so being able to talk about myself, it actually made it much more connecting for me and my husband, because we were able to talk about the things that impacted us, individually, very much a process conversation versus a content conversation. And I think as therapists if we can actually teach our partners to do that, it, it ends up being very rich, because we’re actually it’s like, how did I take things in? And what are the things that are going on? And what are the broad themes? And, and so, yeah, it can feel like the CIA, but I think having been in it so long, I think it’s, if there’s an understanding and a boundary around it, I think it feels less and less onerous. And there’s just that kind of like, oh, well, I can’t talk about that. Because I even had my mom recently say, oh, so why was that person blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I can’t tell you anything about this mom. Like I just had a weird call today. She’s like, Oh, yeah, you know, sorry, I forgot, you know. And so I think it’s something where being able to understand the boundaries, I think can help with that. But it is weird. I think a lot of people have other things. Maybe I’ve been in it so long, it doesn’t feel as weird anymore. But…
Curt Widhalm 12:25
Well, and it’s also strikes something where if we’re our partners who are not part of our fields that…
Katie Vernoy 12:33
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 12:34
There’s this vague understanding of us helping people and not really understanding how. In, you know, there’s the show up for sessions, talk about difficult things. But not even being able to know that our partners are going to handle a lot of the difficult material that we end up talking about with our clients, that we’re able to have that self recognition that monitoring our own countertransference, our own feelings about what’s going on with clients, evaluating it in our own therapies that, you know, being able to go to the dinner table or talk with your partner about your day and talk about somebody who’s been sexually molested for most of their life and going through traumas that are related to that, even as an adult just doesn’t make for good dinnertime conversation.
Katie Vernoy 13:27
No, nobody wants to talk about that at the dinner table.
Curt Widhalm 13:32
Especially if they’re not people who handle difficult material themselves or don’t want to engage in that, that if that makes up a very significant portion of our day, that can create another gap in those relationships with our partners. And it’s something to be aware of. That this is not to say that therapists only need to relate to other therapists. But it is something that being very observant of those pieces of our day, does have an effect that it’s not that we really are in a profession where we’re able to leave work at work all of the time. But understanding the capacity of our partners, as far as how those conversations go.
Katie Vernoy 14:14
And I think it’s also, this is probably very person by person. I mean, I think there are times when I’m deeply impacted by content, and I feel a need to process and if I process the actual content with an appropriate colleague, I think that’s part of it. Part of it is, you know, if I process my, the, my emotional response to it and kind of thematically say yeah, you know, I was talking about sexual abuse today and it you know, it kind of brought these things up and I’m having a hard time and blah, blah, blah. I can I can do that with my partner because I’m not giving any confidential information away. And whether or not that can sit on like dinner table, maybe not, maybe but like saying, Hey, I had a hard day and this is why. I think determining if you have space for that in your relation ship, and if not, you know, where can you get those needs met? But I think I don’t want to talk about that stuff at the dinner table either. Like I it’s like I want to, I want to have that separation. And I want to be talking about what he’s been doing for the day or what our plans are for the weekend, or, you know, the latest topic in the news or something like that. And so I think it potentially is also person by person. I’m not a therapist that likes talking about therapy. We just recently had an episode with Doug Friedman. He’s like, Yeah, I hate talking about therapy. And now we’ve got a podcast, we’re always talking about therapy, I find that humorous, because I also have a podcast talking about being a therapist, and I’m like, I don’t necessarily want to be talking about it, but apparently I do. But in my my regular life, I think I, I like having that switch, and not having that thing. And sometimes I can’t even speak after work, because I’m so exhausted and don’t want to have conversation. So I think…
Curt Widhalm 15:54
And I want to add on onto that point.
Katie Vernoy 15:56
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 15:56
Because this is something that definitely is in my household too, but especially during the pandemic, of the inability to just leave work at work. There’s no place to go with it. So when we leave those sessions exhausted, and yeah, I have elementary school aged kids that our work has, you know, definitely, our work as parents has definitely gone more to my partner’s side of things, because she has the job that can be interrupted all day long when kids need things.
Katie Vernoy 15:56
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 15:56
And that is something that is really, really difficult in relationships to be able to feel like there’s a balance in parenting. But that’s just in general, we know that from…
Katie Vernoy 16:46
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 16:47
From our couples work. But we don’t have the kinds of jobs that can be interrupted. We go and lock ourselves away. And then to leave sessions exhausted and try and make up for any of the parenting that we haven’t done all day long. While creating our own space. It’s not like, okay, I get done with a 50 minute session. And I have 10 minutes to do now, let’s go to the bathroom, get over what just happened and prepare for the next session. It’s also trying to add in eight minutes of parenting in that space, too.
Katie Vernoy 17:20
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 17:21
And so some of these balances, especially during the pandemic have been even greater heightened, because even though we’re physically present more, we’re not any more emotionally present unless we intentionally take some steps to help figure out that balance or recalibrate with our partners.
Katie Vernoy 17:42
Yeah. Yeah, I think the pandemic was especially hard for folks with kids. You know, obviously, I don’t know what that was. I don’t have kids. But I also think it was hard for therapists in general, in that there was us just being constantly weighed down by the heaviness of the pandemic, or, or any of the many news stories that were coming up that we were living in real time, the racial inequity, the attack on the Capitol, like, we were carrying that. And I think that, to your point, like having to go out into a space and be present for a partner is hard enough when we’ve basically lost the ability to process anything additional. But then when you also have kids in the mix, and you’re not able to be present for them in the same way and so your partner is not just picking up the the logistical childcare, but also the emotional childcare like it just seems like that would be excruciatingly challenging. And I think we had a one of our listeners say, like, Hey, can you talk specifically about that? So I’m glad we’re getting into this now. Because I think when we’re being overtaxed as a profession or as an individual, so I think systemically I think we’re being overtaxed as a profession right now. And so I think a lot of us resonate with this. But even when we’re being overtaxed individually, I don’t know that our partners get why we are like, I think I’ve talked about this in toxic work environments, but I’m not sure but I would stare like I would lose words, I would lose focus, and we would be in the middle of dinner and I would just have nothing left. And I would just stare and eat and I was gone, you know. And when everyone’s when everyone at the table is having a hard time it’s hard to understand why therapists are so done at the end of the day, when we’re just sitting in talking to people.
Curt Widhalm 19:38
And, you know, it’s even, you know, the other ways that we tend to just kind of dissociate, you know. My wife complains, you know, that I’m on my phone all the time just doing absolutely nothing. And it’s one of…
Katie Vernoy 19:56
I relate to that complaint.
Curt Widhalm 19:57
I put my phone down here and stop. But just one of those ways of low key not dealing with stuff of just wanting to zone out because of the heaviness of what we’re doing. And without, you know, having the consistent opportunities to engage in self care. Because I saw it tweet the other day that was from another mental health professional that was about how hard it is right now to turn away people who need mental health because we don’t have any more space to give.
Katie Vernoy 20:37
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 20:37
And that does extends to our families, our partners. And, you know, as we’re both kind of talking about this here, we know that we need to give more, especially when it comes to our partners during this time. And this being a crunch time that is affecting us and all of our clients that our partners are, unfortunately, some of the people who get pushed to the side a little bit in order for us to take care of everybody else. And this leads to, you know, some of those tropes about, you know, being a therapist’s kid. Of like, recognizing that your parents are taking care of everybody else, potentially even at the cost of you. That there’s a lot of benefits to this. There’s a lot of things that when we do recognize these processes, and we do something about them that they can be addressed. But we’re at a particularly vulnerable time right now, where are profession’s being called up to be there for a lot of people who are struggling right now.
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Katie Vernoy 21:43
As you were talking, I kind of was imagining what a partner of a therapist might need, like, what skill sets do they need? And I think resilience, resourcefulness, independence, I think all of those things are really important. Having done at least some of your own work, because you can’t hide. But at the same time, I was, so I was thinking about that, and, and recognizing that having that capacity doesn’t mean that you’re going to have that all available to you all the time. And I think in normal circumstances under normal, you know, normal conditions in the world, we can find our, our strength and our resilience, our resources. And it becomes about as a therapist, am my balancing my life in a way where I can show up in the relationship in the the agreements that I have with my partner. But during this time, I took on extra cases, I think you took on extra cases, a lot of the folks we’ve talked about, like the guy, the person that was tweeting was like, we’ve just run out of space. And our partners are going through the pandemic and all the different things and so even if they have those things generally, their capacity is reduced as well. And so it seems like um, I’m, I’m pausing because I feel like it’s hard to put this into words, but it’s even if our partners have the capacity and the the ability to do, to be our our partners. They may not have it now. There’s just may not be the resources there. And I think that’s the thing that I think a lot of people I’ve talked to have experienced, that there’s needed to be more intentional conversations and, and may not even be the capacity within the relationships to have those conversations because of how depleted everybody is. So it…
Curt Widhalm 23:55
With further, with further expectations that because you’re the therapist that you should then recognize and be able to do something. Which turns this you know horseshoes right back around to some of the issues that we have, even outside of the pandemic.
Katie Vernoy 24:12
Yeah, yeah. Which is, we are still humans. And we aren’t therapists within our relationship. We have knowledge but that doesn’t mean we’re not going to be emotionally dysregulated or irrational, and no one can but I think that there’s a different expectation that I was hearing from a lot of the comments anyway in our Facebook group and certainly, I’ve experienced it, not with my husband as much but with other people in my life, that I have to be this perfect, emotionally intelligent individual at all times. And it’s just not realistic.
Curt Widhalm 24:54
So to finish up our our sandwich here, ending with another positive slice of bread. The resourcefulness that we do bring in does allow for us to address a lot of these issues. That, you know, if we are confident in being able to share our own needs, ending sessions, getting home at night outside of the pandemic, leaving our home office behind during the pandemic, just needing our personal space to be recognized until we are able to come in and listen to our partners. And being able to express that as a need that then allows for, right, I can get my needs and your needs met right right away next. That we do have a lot of the answers to improve our relationships. And, you know, it might blend some of the things that we see and do at work. That my wife points out that she can tell when I have really, really tough couples that I’m working with or tough families, because I’m a lot more loving when I come out of those sessions, thankful for the positives that…
Katie Vernoy 26:04
Lots of gratitude.
Curt Widhalm 26:04
Yeah. We don’t want to end up like that. We do end up with a lot of things and knowledge of things that can work in our relationships, and being able to help institute those into our patterns can create a lot of that respect to make our relationships a lot more fulfilling.
Katie Vernoy 26:25
I think we also have a capacity to have challenging conversations that positively impacts all of our relationships. I think some folks may not like that we have those challenging conversations. But when challenging conversations need to happen, you know, where it’s not every single day, all the time, every minute of the day, but like when we’re actually recognizing that there’s something that if we were able to talk about it, it would resolve the issue, I think that we do have that capacity, and the ability to recognize when we’re in a grounded wise mind space, that what our what our partner might need, or what you know, what would support the relationships that we’re in, I think we can oftentimes have a little bit more emotional intelligence and capacity to identify how people other than ourselves might need to cope or show up or those kinds of things. And so it can allow if if our partners our, our relationships are grounded on that as a value, you know, that kind of self awareness, and that willingness to talk about what needs to be talked about. Our ability to sit with it can both teach our partners to do a better job. We can also ask them for specific things and then we can also allow them to be them and get what they need.
Curt Widhalm 27:57
And especially when we are working through partners who really don’t understand what we’re doing. That, you know, there’s a comparison of, you know, you only worked five hours today, you know, I worked eight or nine, you know, and some other job, you know, not understanding that it’s not just us sitting and kind of half listening to a, you know, meeting about TPS reports or something like that.
Katie Vernoy 28:28
Or writing a TPS report.
Curt Widhalm 28:29
Right, that we are present. And that is exhausting, and does not necessarily translate over. But being able to have the patience of explaining the type of work that we do with our partners helps us to bridge some of those things. So that way, we’re helping to get that other perspective of the kinds of work that we do, and where we don’t necessarily have that easy start and stop to our day that the things that operate in the back of our minds do need the space to be compartmentalized, and we do have those skills to be able to help, you know, our partners come around and be able to see the stuff that we do even if we have to maintain that confidentiality.
Katie Vernoy 29:18
Exactly.
Curt Widhalm 29:19
We would love to continue hearing your thoughts on all of this. You can join our Facebook group, the Modern Therapist Group, let us know on any of our social media your stories about ways that your partners have reacted to you being a therapist, and if you’re wanting to share with, you know, if there is a long future oriented episode of therapists being married to therapists and how those relationships look, you can share those memories as well. You can check out our show notes at mtsgpodcast.com. And check out the Therapy Reimagined 2021 conference over at therapyreimaginedconference.com to check out all of our updates there. And until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
… 29:19
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Announcer 30:05
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