An ER Doctor Reflects on Gun Violence, Health Inequities, and Moral Injury: An interview with Dr. Ruby J. Long
Curt and Katie interview Dr. Ruby Long, ER doctor and restorative justice advocate, about the devastating impact of gun violence in the U.S. and its designation as a public health crisis. Dr. Long highlights its rise as the leading cause of death for children and adolescents and shares the emotional toll on healthcare providers. She reflects on compassion fatigue and moral injury in the ER, which was exacerbated by health inequity and the covid pandemic.
Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.Transcript
An Interview with Dr. Ruby J. Long
Dr. Ruby J. Long is an exceptional medical doctor who has dedicated her life to saving lives and serving those in need. She is an accomplished author and a compassionate advocate for individuals who are often overlooked and marginalized by the healthcare system. The United States COVID-19 Health Equity Task Force adopted several implementation strategies for equitable allocation of scarce resources that Dr. Long presented. Additionally, the Society for Academic Emergency Medicine advanced equitable Crisis Standards of Care Policies because of her influence at the onset of the COVID-19 Pandemic.
Dr. Ruby Long earned medical licensure and healthcare system leadership training from Indiana University and Stanford Schools of Medicine respectively. She completed the rigorous Restorative Justice Leadership Certificate program at the University of San Diego. Dr. Long is a Fellow of the American College of Emergency Physicians and has been board-certified by the American Board of Emergency Medicine since 2010.
Her work is truly inspiring and serves as a reminder of the importance of recognizing the humanity of all individuals. Dr. Long’s personal experiences of waiting anxiously in the hospital for updates on sick loved ones and being a vulnerable, frightened patient on the exam table, have given her a unique perspective on the challenges and needs of patients. Her work is driven by a deep sense of compassion and empathy for those who have been neglected or mistreated by the healthcare system. Dr. Long is a true inspiration, dedicating herself to empowering individuals to overcome medical obstacles and achieve their full potential. Her commitment to improving the lives of others is a shining example of what it means to be a valuable asset to the medical community.
In this podcast episode, we talk with Dr. Ruby J. Long about gun violence
Dr. Ruby J. Long has been an ER doctor for a long time and has seen a lot of gun violence come through her doors. She is reaching out to help providers understand the specifics, provides a helpful acronym and is sharing her resourceful book.
The Reality of Gun Violence in the U.S.
“Whenever I initially think about gun violence, I think about interpersonal violence and things that went awry…But when you look at the data, particularly the Pew Research Data, or even this US Surgeon General report about firearm violence, you see that suicides are the number one cause of death from firearms.” – Dr. Ruby J. Long
- 54% of U.S. adults have been directly affected by firearm violence.
- Gun violence has surpassed other leading causes of death for children and adolescents.
- Firearms are the leading cause of death in suicides.
- It is important that providers are able to identify risk factors, particularly for senior males and veterans, and promoting secure gun storage.
How can gun violence impact the medical and mental health providers who are supporting victims?
- The moral injuries and trauma healthcare professionals face from witnessing the physical and mental health impacts of gun violence.
- Dr. Long shares her own experiences as an ER doctor and the profound emotional impact of treating gunshot victims.
The importance of responsible gun storage and using the “Be SMART” approach:
- Secure guns.
- Model responsible behavior.
- Ask about unsecured guns.
- Recognize the role of guns in suicide.
- Tell peers about gun safety.
“We’re going to encourage people to secure the guns at a minimum, and we’re going to ask that if they do own guns, to model responsible behavior.” – Dr. Ruby J. Long
Provider Support and Self-Care:
- Coping with burnout and moral injuries through personal limits, professional therapy, and systemic support (beyond yoga mats and pizza parties)
- The importance of small, focused actions in advocating for gun safety and violence prevention.
Dr. Long’s Book: Love Letters to Patients
- Inspired by her experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic.
- Offers resources for health challenges like suicide, domestic violence, and overdose.
- Aims to empower patients and encourage early intervention.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:
We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Dr. Ruby J. Long’s Book Love Letter to Patients
Dr. Ruby J. Long’s website: casualtyconsultant.org
Dr. Ruby J. Long’s social media:
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:
Psychiatric Crises in the Emergency Room, An Interview with Kesy Yoon, LMHC and James McMahill, LMFT – Fixing Mental Health in America
What Therapists Should Know about the Rollout of 988
Two Years In: Is 988 Actually Helping People Facing Mental Health Crises?
Working for 988: Insider Perspectives
Modern Therapist Reflections on Preventing a School Shooting
Are You Too Burned Out to Work? An ethical assessment of therapist burnout and impairment
Who we are:
Curt Widhalm, LMFT
Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note:
Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy:
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community:
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:
Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):
Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).
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Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 0:15
Welcome back, modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy, and this is the podcast for therapists about the things that go on in the therapy world, the things that affect the work that we do, and sometimes some of the adjacent places that our work shows up, and getting into suicide, gun violence, and how that shows up. And joining us today to help facilitate this conversation is Dr Ruby long, she’s a fellow of the American College of Emergency Physicians, and helpful to look at where all of this stuff shows up, especially when it comes on, kind of the emergency end of things. So thank you very much for joining us today.
Dr. Ruby J. Long 0:56
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. So I am Ruby long. I am, by day, an ER doctor, and by my other sort of hat, I am an advocacy hero. That’s what I will say. And I think it comes because I’m a bit of a battered do gooder and hoping that we see the best in humanity and hoping to reduce medical harm through restorative justice and creating great health for everybody we come in contact with.
Katie Vernoy 0:56
Wow, a battered do gooder. I really like that definition. It’s it just that hit me to the core. So I definitely appreciate that. I appreciate the work that you’re doing. And we oftentimes will start our episodes with lessons for our fellow mental health therapists and I, not from a place of shame, but just trying to kind of understand what we can miss in some of these topics that we bring up. So what can therapists miss, or what do we get wrong when working gun violence?
Dr. Ruby J. Long 1:59
We are now in a new normal. We’ve been here for a few years now. However, before the pandemic, all of these interpersonal violence sort of demonstrations were concerning. But in the air after COVID, they have all skyrocketed, skyrocketed to the point that the United Nations actually calls intimate partner violence the shadow pandemic. And so I think it’s really something that we have to be mindful of. And I guarantee you, you’re seeing people in the office to work through anxiety, PTSD and other sorts of emotional distress, because we know that half, more than half, 51% of all high school age kids are scared about a shooting at school. We know that one in three adults are scared as well about mass shootings, right? And sometimes they change their plans, their activities, of what they’re going to do, out of the fear of gun violence. And we won’t even talk about the people that have actually intimately been touched by gun violence. And so then I think as the last thing, who takes care of us, who sees this trauma ongoing, every day, repeatedly, right? So there are some moral wounds and injuries that providers take with them that I’m not so certain we actually talk about.
Curt Widhalm 3:26
So can you help us start by framing what is the state of where gun violence is showing up right now?
Dr. Ruby J. Long 3:34
I will give you the kind of national update, but I just want you to know it has taken about 20 years for this to become a national headline. But as of June this year, the US Surgeon General has called firearm violence a public health crisis, and this is because 54% of US adults have experienced firearm violence within their family or their close circle, and over the last couple of years, unfortunately, firearm gun violence is now the number one cause of death of children and adolescents. More than car accidents, more than overdoses, more than cancer. And when you really drill down on the demographic of who is getting killed, it’s vibrant young boys, and many of them pack arms and weapons to do their summer jobs and wind up in really bad situations.
Katie Vernoy 4:41
You work in an emergency department, or you have worked in an emergency department. What does that look like for what you’re seeing come in there? Because it feels oppressive, the numbers that you just described.
Dr. Ruby J. Long 4:55
I think, at different points in my life, right, so I’ve been in the game professionally, 18 years in in medicine for 20 and so, you know, at first there was a bit of excitement, because there’s gun violence, right? There’s a formula for taking care of this injured patient that’s so critically ill. And then, kind of after the adrenaline settles down, I start to ask questions like, why does this person who can’t even drive a car have access to a handgun? I think the bigger concern is, every time you have to walk into a room and tell a parent that their child is not going home with them because of gun violence, it is disgusting, and it’s disgusting, right, because I think I still care about the humanity of the people that I take care of. And then when I became a parent, there’s like, a whole new level of like, I do not believe that this is happening, right? Like kids should be at home on a video game bender, not counting kilos and dodging bullets.
Curt Widhalm 6:04
The statistics that you were citing is this is emerging as the number one cause of death, and the demographics that you’re citing the epidemic, pandemic, I don’t remember the word that you used exactly, but this also has a lot of political implications that deal with even just how people in your position even get to talk about this on a policy level. I know that based on the administrations, the CDC gets to say things under some leadership, and they don’t get to say things under other leadership. How have you seen that trend affect what you’re witnessing in your job over the last 20 years that you’ve been doing this.
Dr. Ruby J. Long 6:47
20 years ago, people thought it was isolated to certain neighborhoods, certain zip codes, and then something happened, and small people that still wear backpacks and take lunch bags to school started getting involved, and their educators got involved as well. What I do know is that our US Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy, has been talking about this for 10 years, 10 years, and just this June, there’s an official policy awareness of gun violence and the impact. We haven’t even talked about actual policy that changes practices. So I think we are in for just a very sobering experience, right? Because it’s not totally logic, it’s not emotion and it’s not ethical responsibility that shapes our policy.
Katie Vernoy 7:45
Do you have recommendations on where policy should go?
Dr. Ruby J. Long 7:48
Yes, I have policy things. And number two, there’s something else I think. Whenever I initially think about gun violence, I think about interpersonal violence and things that went awry, right? Usually some argument, blah, blah, blah, or an attempt to take something from another person. But when you look at the data, particularly the Pew Research Data, or even this US Surgeon General report about firearm violence, you see that suicides are the number one cause of death from firearms. And so what we realize is that we own guns, and we use them against ourselves, sometimes for a answer, a very permanent answer to a very temporary situation. And so that, to me, I think, is one of the hugest sort of takeaways, right? How we store our guns, where we keep access to guns? Please do not let me have another 10 year old attempted suicide victim come in from a firearm injury? We know that our senior male neighbors are likely to take their lives with the gun, and we know that anyone that has served in the military is high risk for suicidal attempt or suicide attempt. And so on the small scale, right, I don’t, I don’t know if we’ll ever really get policy changed, but we can all be do gooders and still get beat up and battered every day. And so we can flag those populations to at least pay a little more attention to them, to figure out kind of what’s going on. And then lastly, I’ll say, Listen, there are 338 million people, citizens of this country, and there are 400 million, at least, registered guns in this country. So that’s one gun for every single person, and we know the toddlers aren’t walking around with guns, right? So it’s a big deal. I’m not so great at math, but I can tell you that 338 goes into 400 more than one time. So we must assume that every household has a firearm, and some might even have more. And what we can do is just assume that the people we care for will be in proximity to a gun, even if it’s not in their home, when they go visit somebody. And there’s this acronym out there called Be SMART, what they encourage is that the S is for securing your guns. The M is for modeling responsible behavior around guns. The a is about asking about unsecured guns when you go visit other people, and the R is to recognize the role of guns in suicide. And T is to tell your peers about gun safety and to be SMART. I think that does not require a capital request. We can all plug those into our little see ya later exit interviews as we encounter our patients and clients, and maybe with time, it will become standard of care.
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Curt Widhalm 11:26
in today’s climate. I can just imagine messages like that just being brushed off or poo pooed by people who are saying, well, it’s my right. You know, you’re out there with your facts and your statistics and that kind of stuff, but that’s not gonna affect me. How do you see those conversations going as kind of a proactive health and mental health messaging when it is such a vitriolic, I guess, argument for so many people?
Dr. Ruby J. Long 11:58
Yeah, and that’s when I tap into like my restorative justice lens, right? It’s about meeting people where they are. And the most powerful thing I’ve seen with restorative justice is from a medical standpoint, a patient that had been so severely hurt and harmed from a medical procedure that they were on the verge of suicide. There was the intervention. All parties were heard, providers that did the procedure, patients, patients, families, other caregivers that saw this and experienced this, and eventually they came to some powerful solutions together. And so I think the goal is to try to meet people where they are figure out what they need in their guns, in their arms, to protect themselves, and then bring them back to the table a little later to maybe hear the story of a gun violence victim or a firearm survivor, or to hear the story of a child who lost their primary caregiver, their their parent, from gun death or gun violence, and over time, build community. I don’t think we’re going to win the answer right by telling anyone what to do, but I think we will absolutely start so slowly, so teeny, tiny, slowly by just figuring out, what do people need in these firearms, and just, can we open your mind just a teeny bit, or just not even open your mind, but just understand that somebody has a different experience in life with guns and safety and things of that nature. It’s not an easy fix. Period.
Katie Vernoy 13:50
I think that idea sounds promising, but also daunting, and I think that there are a lot of conversations at a high level that need to happen. When I think about our audience, and even Curt some of my practices that that we see clients, we see folks who, theoretically, based on the numbers that you’re describing, have access to guns, potentially are in intimate partner violent situations, or are considering suicide, or have some sort of gun violence with someone close to them; as clinicians on this real micro level, the one to one conversations, what do we need to be doing with with this heightened awareness of what gun violence, or firearm violence has become in the United States, and what are some safety plan considerations that we can really take on this one to one level, to make sure that we’re doing good work, to try to maybe not solve but take those teeny, tiny steps with each of our clients.
Dr. Ruby J. Long 14:52
Absolutely. So I think the first step, like within ourselves, is to acknowledge that the violence is happening, right? Recognize the gravity, the severity of the situation, and we have to find maybe a way even within ourselves first, to shatter the shame and the silence of this shadow sort of pandemic, right? So I’m gonna, gonna, gonna, kind of go there. And there are tons of things that need to happen on a national policy sort of level. It’s hard, because we can’t guarantee if those things will change and when they will change. But what we can do as providers is see the humanity of the person in front of us and recognize that our personal issues, right, our stock portfolios, work hours, whatever we got to leave them at the door, so that we can pick up those subtle cues when we are in interaction with people we serve, so that we can see all the cues, so that we can pick up on all the the body language, right? We know what distracted driving does in a car: accident.
Katie Vernoy 16:12
Sure.
Dr. Ruby J. Long 16:13
What about distracted clinician, distracted practitioners? Right? What are those sort of situations resulting in? And just really sit with the fact that people likely have a different experience than you, however, right this, the prevalence, the commonality of firearm and gun violence, is everywhere. So, there’s something that I think we can connect with the other person about but and maybe reduce that wall of shame that they have about it. And as far as safety planning goes right now, right? We don’t have to ask for a budget request to do this. We’re just going to make some hopefully good assumptions, right, that every household has access to a gun, and if you don’t, then maybe your neighbor or your friend does. And we’re going to encourage people to secure the guns at a minimum, and we’re going to ask that if they do own guns, to model responsible behavior. It’s kind of like me in the hospital. I try not to make assumptions about what diseases people have, right caring in their blood, mucus, saliva. I just wear gloves with every single patient. You might have the MRSA. Don’t want your MRSA abscess. I just wear gloves for every single encounter, right? And just what if we close every encounter with a client with: And hey, I want you to stay safe out there. If you have guns in your home that are not locked up, can you consider locking them up? I know you won’t do anything. But what happens when that uncle comes over for the holidays and gets a little too loosey goosey, or that kid comes over and they’re just curious and they’ve accidentally shot someone or themselves. So that’s kind of what I am going to recommend at this point, because this is what I feel that is doable, and I can hold myself accountable to that.
Curt Widhalm 18:19
You obviously have a lot of enthusiasm about this, and informed very much from your work on this. Do you see other providers in the physical health space, in the emergency space, in the mental health space, adopting this as part of their regular messaging? Part of why I ask this is my practice, my group practice, we are very upfront about assessing for suicidality and make that very prominent as part of our messaging from intake throughout all of our sessions. It’s an ongoing part of our practice. And we found some clients who get to the first session and we ask those questions, and they say we would rather take our kids someplace else that isn’t so open about talking about suicide, but we’ve found that it has in large part done more good than bad. And the handful of clients that decide to go someplace else good, they’re finding providers that are good for them. I’m wondering if you’re seeing the same kinds of trends with the messaging that you’re putting out there.
Dr. Ruby J. Long 19:22
I don’t know, on a mass scale if there is truly like this is the statement that we’re going to run behind, right and these are five tools that you can use right now to implement, particularly on a national level, and looking at our national sort of leadership and policy organizations. What I can say is that when a bunch of ER providers get together, they are beat up, right? The moral wounds are very serious, and people are passionate, not so much because guns are sexy or, you know, there’s this adrenaline rush that comes with getting it right, but because communities are just being ripped apart. And so there are definitely some, like top level best practices out there from some of these policy institutes. But what people do in their everyday practice, I think, is so diverse. Some people, some providers, they relate deeply to this, right? So they get involved in trying to prevent gun violence. They start working with community interrupters. They start working with law enforcement. And so there are lots of things all over the place, and I’m not sure if we’ve found that one go to sort of thing yet.
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Katie Vernoy 20:43
You’ve talked a couple of different ways around kind of moral injury, compassion fatigue, burnout, those types of things that you’re seeing from providers the battered name you said, battered do gooder. Thank you, battered do gooder. Do you have recommendations for folks who are facing or squaring off with this kind of violence in their their practices, how they can take care of themselves, how they can kind of decrease the level of battered do gooderness that they are experiencing?
Dr. Ruby J. Long 21:20
I think the first thing is, right, you’re not alone. Number two, I think that anybody that sees repetitive, consistent trauma needs to have their own therapist, because adulting in life in itself is hard, and then when you add these other things to it, right, the weight of someone else’s livelihood, that is really heavy, so I just hands down comment that people should have a therapist. Number two, maybe it’s because I got, like, 20 years in the game, and I’m no longer, like, super bright eyed bushy tailed, I’m learning to be as efficient as possible with my actions and activities, right? So me trying to do 10 different committees about firearm violence and violence prevention probably isn’t going to work, but let me just stick to my one little thing, right? I’m going to stick to my be SMART for every patient that I see, and we’re going to roll that out, and maybe it’ll catch on like wildfire. And I also know that I have the expiration limit to how many days I can work in a row, so it’s very important that we are honest with ourselves about what we can do with the energy that we have.
Curt Widhalm 22:42
One of the things that Katie and I talk a lot about, and you’re kind of leading us into this part of the conversation, too. You’re talking about some of the personal limits and boundaries that you have with your job. But any part of talking about working with very heavy topics, day in and day out, it’s also the workplace environmental things that go into having a just health care system is also just for the workers. And is that something that you’re seeing in your line of work, the hospitals doing a good job of also providing systemic levels of care and boundaries for you?
Dr. Ruby J. Long 23:18
I am not speaking in regards to any particular hospital association, any coincidence, any any similarities may just happen to be coincidental, but I’ve seen a few yoga mats come around. Definitely seen lots of pizza parties and some self care newsletters.
Katie Vernoy 23:39
So all the stuff that we’ve talked about as checkbox staff support.
Dr. Ruby J. Long 23:45
In places that are slightly more in tune, or maybe their risk management legal team have had some different conversations with them. You see more professional resources for counseling, work hour restrictions, workload restrictions and things like that.
Katie Vernoy 24:07
So work is hard, you’ve figured out your limitations and focusing your attention into be SMART and and getting yourself to a place where you can potentially have the capacity to keep doing this work, but you also somehow found time to write a book Love Letters to patients. Can you tell us about your book and what inspired it and how it can support us and our clients?
Dr. Ruby J. Long 24:31
I’m going to go back to the COVID because I have been beat down from that and it literally I don’t know if this is a real thing or not, but this is what I call it. The COVID Rage made me begin writing. So, you know, at the beginning, I was actually working when the pandemic started, and I kind of got a little hot, right? You know, personal protective equipment was a rare commodity to come by. I had to jump through a few hoops, even in the ER to get in 95 masks, to get protective gown or things like that. I wasn’t so happy about it, but I kind of understood right national global emergency. We must be cautious with our supplies. However, I could not reconcile working two different campuses, one on the rural coast of our country, another in a metropolitan area, two totally different resource places. I’m sure I saw the same COVID patient at both places and at the rural site, those patients died, or sometimes they didn’t even come into the hospital because they were so sick. And so that, to me, was enough of the settle my stomach. I need to keep my food down. I need to make it through these days. How can I touch all those people in rural America without, or people in you know, urban communities that don’t have access to solid transportation or health care. How can I get to those people and encourage them to believe that every health care provider is not just in it for the money and to arm themselves with a couple of tools that maybe if they knew something around this mental health condition, they would seek help earlier or differently, or even just be empowered to have resources. So every chapter of the book ends with a couple of pages of resources. So if suicide is of concern, there’s a contact in there, right? I know 988 isn’t ideal, but it’s what we got. You know, if your love hurts and your intimate partner or your domestic partner, the person you live with, the person you love with, if they are hurting on you and hitting you physically or financially, emotionally abusing you, you don’t have to stay and let fuel be put on this fire. Right? You can reach out for help. 807 99 safe. 807 99 safe, which is 7233 is the National Domestic Violence Hotline. And so every single chapter, from overdose, to pregnancy to stroke, heart attack, end of life decisions there its just packed full of resources. And so on one hand, it’s kind of what I would want my doctor to say to me, in a way, that my doctor knew that I was a human being, right, not just a number. That’s what I got. And I think it’s helped me to just kind of process everything that I see every day, right? So it is a pocket size or a pocketbook tool that just lets people know that they are valuable, and if you have no clue where to go for resources, this is a place to start.
Curt Widhalm 28:07
What kind of response have you received from the feedback that you’ve gotten so far?
Dr. Ruby J. Long 28:13
I’ve gotten a couple of couple of very sweet things and a couple of things that I’m like, Okay, this work matters. First, my partners did an awesome job with the artwork. So every single chapter has beautiful images of people of every hue, so many different ethnic backgrounds, religious backgrounds, and so the size of the book, the artwork of the book, the content of the book. A lot of people won’t tell me exactly what they’ve gotten out of the book, but they just kind of say it’s helpful. And so I assume that it’s one of those spicy shadow topics that people are like, I don’t talk about this outside my home, right? But I want this information.
Curt Widhalm 29:00
So, where can people find out more about you and the work you’re doing, and where can they find your book?
Dr. Ruby J. Long 29:06
So me, I am on the internet at DrRubyJLong.org, I’m on the social media like LinkedIn and Threads and Facebook and Instagram as Dr Ruby J Long, the book is hanging out on the Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, on our website and from the publisher, KP pub.
Katie Vernoy 29:31
Nice. And the book is called Love Letters to Patients. Correct?
Dr. Ruby J. Long 29:35
It is and then there’s a subtitle. It’s called: restoring trust while navigating the US healthcare system.
Curt Widhalm 29:43
We will include links to Dr Ruby’s stuff in our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com including where you can get a hold of her book and follow us on our social media, join us in our Facebook group, the Modern Therapist Group, to continue on with this conversation and. And until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Dr Ruby Long.
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Announcer 30:04
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