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Building Your Treatment Team in Private Practice: Essential Networking Skills for Therapists

Curt and Katie chat about treatment teaming, especially for clinicians in private practice. We look at the benefits of a treatment team, how to effectively create an interdisciplinary treatment team (including some networking skills), the qualities of a strong team, and the practicalities for therapists to collaborate effectively in treatment teams.  This is a continuing education podcourse.


Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.

In this podcast episode we talk about how therapists can best work within treatment teams

Clients are often best served by a robust treatment team. Specific diagnoses (like Eating Disorders or Serious Mental Illness) require treatment teaming as a best practice and many others are best served when you are collaborating with the other health and wellness professionals in your clients’ lives. Creating and working within treatment teams in private practice creates a unique challenge. How do you find these professionals and how do you best work with them? The meetings in the hall in treatment centers and agencies can’t happen when you’re at your own office or working virtually. What can modern therapists do? This episode will explore the importance of treatment teams, how to identify who belongs on your treatment teams, and the essential networking skills to create these important relationships.

What do treatment teams look like in private practice?

  • Working with couples counselors as an individual therapist
  • Engaging with other professionals for specific cases (e.g., attorneys)
  • Child and family treatment teams

What are the benefits of treatment teams, especially for lower acuity cases?

  • Best practices for eating disorders, gender affirming care, elders, children
  • Bringing additional expertise, access to rural areas
  • Encouraging interdisciplinary collaboration and coordination
  • Engaging with community members
  • Aligned treatment, which is less confusing for clients
  • Trauma informed care at all levels of treatment and within environmental support
  • Advocacy for client within their community and/or environment

How can therapists create treatment teams when they are in private practice?

“With current clients [potential treatment team members] can be: Who knows that they need help? How did they find you? Where are they going for additional support? What have they tried before going to therapy? What additional supports will they need in therapy?” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT

  • Identifying ideal, usual client and what they need
  • Who are the other people that are working with your client?
  • Where are you able to find the collaborators that you’ll end up working with consistently
  • Interdisciplinary trainings
  • Collaborating with your clients’ established treatment team members

How do therapists vet the people they are meeting with?

  • Assessing for trauma-informed, cultural humility
  • Mutual respect and effective collaboration
  • Stance on the medical model
  • View on clients and how they conceptualize cases

What are the qualities of strong treatment teams?

“One of the other benefits of asynchronous work [in treatment teams] is that sometimes you’re able to write those messages with your client present. So that way, your client is still able to be involved in the treatment team meetings, as well, and be able to be a part of some of the communications and how you’re able to express some of the concerns. And this can help support them to be able to advocate themselves to some of the other professionals that they might not be as comfortable with.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT

  • Trust and respect
  • Communication
  • Shared vision and primary goals
  • Relationship coordination
  • Transparency

How can therapists collaborate effectively with other professionals in private practice?

  • Setting up systems for communication
  • Regular meetings
  • Releases of information
  • Bridging gaps and avoiding duplication of services
  • Sharing perspectives and compromise

Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide

Hey modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!

Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that’s all completed – you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out

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When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information including grievance and refund policies.

CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit.

Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:

We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!

References mentioned in this continuing education podcast:

Bates, S. M., Mellin, E., Paluta, L. M., Anderson-Butcher, D., Vogeler, M., & Sterling, K. (2019). Examining the Influence of Interprofessional Team Collaboration on Student-Level Outcomes through School–Community Partnerships. Children & Schools, 41(2), 111–122.

Biringer, E., Hove, O., Johnsen, Ø., & Lier, H. Ø. (2021). “People just don’t understand their role in it.” Collaboration and coordination of care for service users with complex and severe mental health problems. Perspectives in Psychiatric Care, 57(2), 900–910.

Bligaard Madsen, S., & Burau, V. (2021). Relational coordination in inter-organizational settings. How does lack of proximity affect coordination between hospital-based and community-based healthcare providers? Journal of Interprofessional Care, 35(1), 136–139.

Bruns, E.J., Burchard, J.D. & Yoe, J.T. (1995). Evaluating the Vermont system of care: Outcomes associated with community-based wraparound services. J Child Fam Stud 4, 321–339 (1995).

Chen D, Hidalgo MA, Leibowitz S, Leininger J, Simons L, Finlayson C, Garofalo R. (2016). Multidisciplinary Care for Gender-Diverse Youth: A Narrative Review and Unique Model of Gender-Affirming Care. Transgend Health. 2016 Jul 1;1(1):117-123. doi: 10.1089/trgh.2016.0009. PMID: 28861529; PMCID: PMC5549539.

Johnson, J., Hermosura, B., Price, S., & Gougeon, L. (2021). Factors influencing interprofessional team collaboration when delivering care to community-dwelling seniors: A metasynthesis of Canadian interventions. Journal of Interprofessional Care, 35(3), 376–382.

Jones, L. S., Russell, A., Collis, E., & Brosnan, M. (2022). To What Extent Can Digitally-Mediated Team Communication in Children’s Physical Health and Mental Health Services Bring about Improved Outcomes? A Systematic Review. Child Psychiatry & Human Development, 53(5), 1018–1035.

*The full reference list can be found in the course on our learning platform.


Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:

In-Person Networking

Liability Hot Potato: Defensive Therapy practices that give clients inadequate care

Interdisciplinary Teams

Who we are:

Picture of Curt Widhalm, LMFT, co-host of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide podcast; a nice young man with a glorious beard.Curt Widhalm, LMFT

Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at:

Picture of Katie Vernoy, LMFT, co-host of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide podcastKatie Vernoy, LMFT

Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at:

A Quick Note:

Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.

Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.

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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano

Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):

Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).

… 0:00
(Opening Advertisement)

Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm, and Katie Vernoy.

Curt Widhalm 0:15
Hey, modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for one unit of continuing education for this podcast episode. Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit, you just need to go to, register for your free profile, purchase this course. pass the post test and complete the evaluation. Once that’s all completed, you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile, or you can download it for your records. For a current list of our CE approvals, check out

Katie Vernoy 0:47
Once again, hop over to For one CE once you’ve listened.

Curt Widhalm 0:54
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm, with Katie Vernoy. And this is podcast for therapists about the things that we do in our practices, the things that we do to help our clients and this is another one of our continuing education eligible episodes. So listen at the beginning and the end of the episode for how you can get CE credits for this. And we have talked before a little bit about working within treatment teams. But we are looking here for how we can best serve our clients by being a part of a treatment team and the considerations that go into building a team and how to get to it with no matter the acuity of the case that you’re working with how this can still be beneficial to clients and some things that we haven’t considered before. So Katie, take it away.

Katie Vernoy 1:46
Well, I think one piece of this that I think is important to comment on is some folks would consider this part of networking. And I know that has a business connotation, and we’ll, you know, put together other resources for the business case for networking, and, and how to use business principles for networking. But we’re going to talk about the skills of networking. But this is with the end of having a networked treatment team. So this is a non co-located treatment team when you’re in private practice. Some of the stuff we’re going to talk about is also going to be relevant for folks who are in agencies, treatment centers that have co-located interdisciplinary teams. But I just wanted to say that that these skills are important both for your business and for your clinical practice, but, but this really is going to focus on what makes your networking efforts or networking skills, especially appropriate for clinical treatment teams and best benefit for your client. So I think I just wanted to kind of put that caveat in there. Because I, I want folks to recognize that this helps both your business and your clients. We’re focusing on the clients today.

Curt Widhalm 3:00
I know with my practice, I work with a number of different professionals. But you know, trying to make an episode like this, that we’ve both worked in agencies before where some of the treatment team sort of stuff was already just put into place. This being a podcast that reaches audiences in both agency settings, community mental health, as well as a lot of private practice people. Since you’ve been in private practice do you see a lot of treatment team work either with what you do or with other professionals that you kind of network with?

Katie Vernoy 3:36
Not a lot. And I think we under utilize this mechanism, especially given the benefits that can come to our clients for it. But I think for me in particular, I definitely treatment team a lot with couples counselors for individuals that I see. I’ve actually quote unquote, treatment teamed with attorneys, with other community members. And I’ve done some of that. And I think part of it is my background in like wraparound and other things and community mental health, but I don’t see a lot of it. And I don’t do this for all of my clients. I think it’s it’s underutilized in private practice, I think,

Curt Widhalm 4:16
I think that I use it maybe more than other people do. And it might just be the acuity of some of the cases that I work with. It might just be that I’m very easily bored and isolated. And I just like reaching out to other professionals and finding any excuse to talk with them. But I definitely see some of the benefits for connecting because it does end up providing a lot of different perspectives on what is and isn’t working for client improvement. But what especially for the private practice people what are some of the benefits that you’ve come across as far as working in treatment teams, especially if it is some thing that’s not like a co-located service?

Katie Vernoy 5:03
So some of these are both co-located and non co-located. But the the idea of, of using an interdisciplinary team is often a best practice for a number of populations. I think one that that’s pretty obvious is, is one of the populations you work with schools with, you know, kind of working with schools and all the other people around children, you know, school children oftentimes have really obvious treatment teams that people will get involved in. There’s a big benefit for that, as far as kind of doing best practices, getting all the all the pictures, all the pieces. Gender affirming care is one where there’s research: Chen et all, in 2016, showed that there was better outcomes that this was the best practice. And this has mental health, both in clinic but also in the community. And so there’s both elements both co-located and kind of hybrid, non co-located. And seniors, I think are another one where there’s there’s some obvious treatment team members, different medical providers, that kind of stuff. There’s a article Johnson et all in 2021, that talks about that, too. So we’ll put all the references on our show notes over at as well as on the course at But, but really just aligning with best practice is one of them. I think the the other one that was really interesting, there was a Margolis et all article in 2018, that was talking about increasing access in rural areas. So bringing expertise into an area where, you know, like clinicians are doing consultation with child psychiatrists or the psychiatrists are providing fewer services, but providing consultation support. And so, you know, local therapists are able to do more collaborative positive work with some additional perspective. And I think there’s other full programs and I mentioned wraparound, but but using community supports, interprofessional teams and other things and wraparound, reduce hospitalizations, it can also give you access to cultural healing, and, and other folks. There’s a an article on religious leaders: Osafo et all. And so I think there’s obvious benefits that if you know, with all the time in the world, if we can add these folks into the mix, we can bring additional perspectives, we can bring additional access, all of those things. And some of the outcomes found in a lot of these different studies was better treatment compliance, better coordinated care. I mean, how often have you had a client come and say, well, you’re saying this, but my couples therapist is saying that, or my kids therapist is saying this, and you’re saying that, or my doctor said this, or my sponsor said this. And so I think there can be a lot of confusion and conflicting treatment recommendations when you’re not coordinating care with the treatment team. And then also, you know, just better outcomes. I mentioned, the reduced hospitalizations, but meeting treatment goals, having a lower level of care needed. And so finding ways within your practice to work with the treatment team and work well, and we’ll talk about how to do that is really, really important. It really does improve outcomes, whether you’re co-located or whether you’re doing this in kind of a networked treatment team.

Curt Widhalm 8:28
I really want to highlight the involving some of the non healthcare people into part of the treatment teams, because this is being able to A: to educate other non professionals on especially things like trauma informed principles, or neurodivergent affirming sort of practices, if you’re working with neurodivergent clients, to better be able to reinforce the environmental factors that can support clients,. Those who work with kids, you know, if you’re able to talk with teachers and support staff and those kinds of things, but even consider reaching out to like, if there’s camp directors or other people like that, that can help put things into place, if there is situations that arise with your client that can better create an environmental support rather than it just continuing to be alright, here’s this isolated health care thing. Obviously, all of this is with client permission, though.

Katie Vernoy 9:28
Oh, absolutely, and I think the the biggest piece that this is one of your points that I want to just highlight here is it requires potentially some advocacy on your part, not necessarily with a client, you want the client to get permission, you want to get the appropriate release forms, all of those things. But if you can be an advocate for your client within their world, that’s it’s a it’s an interesting and a different role for some therapists to play but it can actually really improve your ability to do your work. I mean, if you can change the environment around your client, sometimes that solves it. Right?

Curt Widhalm 10:09
Right. And I think that there’s been a lot in the history of our field and I’m seeing more and more research and practices around this in the last, I don’t know, 10 to 15 years, where it is more of a community and environmental approach to what works. And rather than it being just kind of this, alright, mental health needs to be something that’s completely isolated, and is only for, you know, people who are crazy and that kind of stuff. But when it’s appropriate to incorporate more people, to build up the supports to help lead to success, rather than it being about managing from the top down. That’s really where I see the benefits on this.

Katie Vernoy 10:54
Oh, absolutely. And I think it’s, you know, speaking to the acuity level, I think every child in treatment probably would benefit from a treatment team approach, meaning community members supports, the whole family, you know, the wraparound motto is kind of client voice and choice. So you obviously want to identify with the client who they would want to have involved. But having the kid be an IP, trying to struggle against systems that don’t support them, I think is, is really not helpful regardless of if it’s, you know, a small problem or a bigger problem within that’s being identified, you know, kind of the identified presenting problem.

Curt Widhalm 11:36
So we’ve got a lot of the benefits of how this works, we have better treatment compliance, better care, better outcomes, we’re able to support people somewhere in between the extremes of needing to hospitalized people, but maybe a little bit more universally than just kind of worried well, one you know, located service or one singular service sorts of things. Let’s get into the nuts and bolts of this. How do people develop some of these treatment teams, if it’s not already built into an agency or where they’re already working?

Katie Vernoy 12:10
Some of this requires some creativity. The place that I always start, and this is something that probably every business training you’ve done has, so we’re not going to go into it. But it’s really understanding who your ideal or usual client is, or even who the client is in front of you that you’re working with. I think for creating broader teams that you come back to repeatedly, you’re going to want to talk about ideal client, but even with current clients it can be: who knows that they need help, how did they find you? Where are they going for additional support? What have they tried before going to therapy? What additional supports will they need in therapy? It’s not just other therapists, you know, it’s easy to say like, oh, well, they, the family might need 27 versions of therapy. Let me meet all those folks. It’s more looking at, you know, like, I think what you mentioned, like, do they have a coach, you know, are there, are there medical providers involved? Are there tutors involved? You know, like, what is it? I think, and maybe that’s a good place to start, because kids have so many options, but but it’s looking at, okay, my particular client, what do they need? So maybe because you work with kids, Curt? Like, how would you identify who else is in your kid’s life, that would be your kid clients life, who would be good to identify as part of a potential treatment team?

Curt Widhalm 13:35
Usually, this is going to involve their family. It’s going to involve some places around their education, whether it’s a school counselor, if it’s a teacher, if it’s sometimes a person from administration, that really helps to make sure that we’re all working on the same page. Depending on the client’s presenting issue, it might involve sports coaches, or other places where it kid might be needing emotional and behavioral support.

Katie Vernoy 14:05
And there could also be religious leaders. It could also be extended family members. I think wraparound has a really good example of this. It’s just kind of saying like, who does the kid want involved? Right. And so I think it’s, it’s something where, when you’re looking more broadly on who might generally be part of my treatment team, looking at who are the folks that you’re commonly coming into contact with. And so schools, great opportunity, advocates, child advocates, all the folks that you’re talking about, and more broadly, it could be child psychiatrists, it could be behavioral support folks. I mean, there’s just so many different folks that you can reach out to and start to learn more about them. And the best way is like having a case and already starting on it. So like that’s, that’s a good place to begin. But if you’re kind of like, Hey, I don’t have any clients, but I want to start forming a treatment team for what I do. You’ll want to think about how do I know where these folks are going to be? For adults can be even as broad as attorneys, it can be financial planners for like, especially financial therapists. I mean, there’s there’s so many, like, get really creative on who your ideal client is actually interacting with, because there’s going to be folks that need your support that need the the understanding that comes across all the different types of teams that might be created around your clients. And so like I said, we’ll have some sort of a worksheet connected to the course so that you can dig deeper into that. But then we go to where do you find them? So you’ve figured out school people, other like sports coaches, blah, blah, blah… How do I find them? How do you find the people that you do treatment teaming for?

Curt Widhalm 15:46
At this point in my career, it’s usually people that I already enjoy working with that there’s a lot of benefits to working with the same groups of people when it comes to Alright, here’s a certain client presentation, here’s the psychiatrists that I tend to work really well with on this kind of thing. But if I’m giving recommendations to people who don’t have this already established, going and meeting other professionals at, you know, the, the networking meetings that they have. Going to interdisciplinary trainings, talking with my clients about who they already like to work with. And that ends up being something where it’s easier to make kind of a warmer introduction, when I can say, hey, we share a client or if a client is okay with it, hey, I was referred to talk with you, because you and I seem to be working with the same kind of people, but it’s kind of having the confidence to be able to kind of reach out and do that in the first place.

Katie Vernoy 16:50
Yeah, I think that’s important. Because when you’re, when especially if you have, if you have a very specific niche, you can start kind of moving in the same groups of people. But if you don’t share clients, if you’re kind of just one of those folks that are coming over and saying, Hey, I like what you do, I want to talk with you, it’s a little less compelling for folks if it’s not something where you’re going to be working with them on a case. And so I think the strongest is definitely, you know, really think about treatment teams for your current clients. But I think the niche specific trainings or community meetings that are aligned with who you work with, just being in community with a fellow interdisciplinary professionals, I think can be very helpful because you start to see who you click with, who has similar focus to you. And you can really reach out to them and connect with them for a lot of different reasons. The same thing goes with consultation groups, we’re joining established teams, so you’ve already got, you find a dietician for your eating disorder client, and then they connect you to their GP that works with eating disorders, and then you’re kind of in that in that little team, and then start working with them more regularly. I think the other thing that can be very helpful is seeking the resources that your clients need or will need. And so finding the local medical providers that are trauma informed for your your clients that have, you know, sexual trauma. Looking for resources from within the community. So, so spending extra time for your clients, helping to get really solid referrals, and, and looking specifically for these things and reaching out and saying, Hey, I’ve got a client that I need to find a such and such for, I’d love to talk with you to kind of see how you operate so that I can see if this would be a good referral, if this would be a good match. I think it’s something where being really open about what you do and how you operate can be very, very helpful. Because you don’t know who the community supports are that are going to be part of these teams, you don’t know who might be hearing from your ideal clients. And so those folks could also refer back and you can be you can join someone else’s team in that way too.

Curt Widhalm 19:10
And I think, you know, underneath a lot of this is just being able to have, once again, that confidence to go out and reach out to other people, let them know what you have to offer it and being able to join these teams as well as confidently kind of listening because that’s showing that everybody is able to participate. You know, sometimes these teams can end up having a hierarchy where, you know, the psychiatrist on the team can’t be questioned because they’re the one who holds a medical degree. Where some of the teams that I really liked participating in is where everybody’s input is valued equally. But once again, that kind of does take a little bit of being able to put yourself out there as a confident person with something to offer. Otherwise, you might just be developing a very weak nervous system for your clients.

Katie Vernoy 19:10
Oh, goodness, that’s pretty funny. I think that point is really, really important is that you’re not going to want to just be in treatment team for with anyone, you want to make sure that they offer the right services, of course. But for most of us that they’re trauma informed, or are willing to become trauma informed with some additional training from you. That there is an appropriate cultural humility or a willingness to learn more about the clients that you’re working with that you share with them. A real willingness to collaborate. I hate the treatment teams that have someone that just as this is how it goes, and I’m not going to listen to you, I’m not going to respect your expertise, all of that. But it really means kind of meeting at these days, it’s meeting virtually, but in the past, it would be getting together for coffee. And sometimes now it’s that too. I actually had a treatment team meeting yesterday over over lunch, all without any identifying information. But it was nice to to have a little bit of a quick conversation with someone in person about our shared clients. And so it’s it’s really having some of these one on one conversations initially to see is this, this the type of professional that’s going to be helpful to my clients and someone that I can collaborate with effectively.

… 21:30
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Curt Widhalm 21:31
So what do you look for in these other team members? Like how do you know when somebody is good and is going to gel with you and the way that you work.

Katie Vernoy 21:40
And sometimes it’s broadly talking about either the case that we’re sharing, if it’s something where it’s a, an actual in process, treatment team situation, or how they perceive the world. So often, you meet someone, and if you’re doing the whole, like, Let’s have coffee, or that kind of stuff, and you’re talking about things, if you if you’re just kind of broadly talking about how hard the profession is, or if you’re kind of talking about the weather or the news, or you know, those kinds of things, you’re not going to necessarily get to know how this professional conceptualizes cases or how they they work with their clients. And sometimes you don’t, you know, you don’t necessarily want to do that over over coffee. But I like to just think about, you know, kind of, are they taking a hard line medical model stance, which doesn’t align for me? Are they using antiquated language that feels like it’s really not, you know, kind of culturally informed modern language? How are they perceiving clients in general? I mean, sometimes there’s, you know, you get together with other therapists, and a lot of folks complain about how defensive clients are, how hard they are, or, you know, those kinds of things where they put this frame on clients that feels really disrespectful or, or objectifying. And so to me, it’s, it’s really do we mash? Do we do we seem to broadly have some similar perspectives on the humanity of clients and the importantness of of seeing them as whole people and being present with them? But I think then it goes to what is their theoretical orientation? Or how they perceive their philosophy, if they’re not clinicians? And how they approach you? You know, are they showing respect to you? I mean, I’ve had people say, like, oh, my gosh, she charged that much, is it really worth it? You know, like people who interact with you in a disrespectful way, and it’s like, well, yeah, it wouldn’t be helpful to me as a clinician to meet up with those people. But it also I get concerned that the way that they treat clients will be flavored with that as well and potentially would undermine my work. And so, so I think for me, that’s kind of off the top of my head. That’s how I vet my my folks, how do you vet the folks that that you work with? Or how did you when you initially started getting into some of this?

Curt Widhalm 24:10
I think a lot of what you’re describing is accurate for my approach as well: people who are going to work similarly to me, people are going to communicate effectively and not just being kind of where I’m the one doing all of the pursuing to share information that there’s kind of a equitable, equal amount of effort that we’re putting in to make sure that everybody is doing this for the best interests of the client. That it’s not just kind of a check the box sort of thing or kind of an afterthought sort of thing. And I think that it’s really just kind of the who are people that I see as benefiting clients who are kind of easy to work with as well.

Katie Vernoy 24:58
For sure. The next segment of research that I looked into was was how do you really create a very effective team? Because finding them I mean, that’s, that’s the initial part of networking or getting together. Establishing a treatment team is finding the people and determining that you actually want to be in treatment team with them. But then it’s actually how do you effectively do it? Because I think if you have an ineffective treatment team, not only does it harm your credibility in this in the community, and potentially you’ve lost referral sources, and whatever the business case is, but it also can really hinder your client. And it can be really… it can really negatively impact your clients treatment outcomes. I had a a treatment team, where I was joining the team, I connected with a psychiatrist, and the psychiatrist very much had a, such a different perspective on how to treat trauma, and really talkedthe client out of continuing to see me. And so it was, it was very hard to navigate that. And it clearly disrupted treatment. This was a psychiatrist that I believed was over medicating the client. And so it was something where, for me that the horrible, horrible treatment outcomes because of a different philosophy. And so, and this was after we had had an initial meeting, and it was a very positive conversation. And so it’s something where there’s that, that element of really finding and, and promoting best practices within your treatment teaming so that you… it’s not a one and done I guess is what I’m saying. It’s it’s being able to really work effectively, time and again, whether it’s for one client or for a number of clients that you’re seeing. And so lots of research went into this. Again, we’ll put all of that in the show notes. But but there’s some common themes of what creates a really strong treatment team or interprofessional collaboration is one of the search terms that I found and started using. So the first one is trust and respect. When you’re when you think about trust and respect, kind of in a professional setting, what does that what does that look like to you?

Curt Widhalm 27:24
Biggest piece of it is coming together for a common goal rather than needing to prove who’s right. And sometimes I end up seeing this with, you know, some of the more, I guess, assigned treatment team groups where the disagreements end up coming at the expense of client progress rather than for client progress. And being able to handle different viewpoints. You know, you’re talking about the psychiatrist that you had a different perspective on, if that’s a situation that’s handled in a good way, then it can be like, Well, tell me more about where you’re coming from that kind of stuff. But I’ve seen some assigned treatment teams where it’s just like, you stay in your lane and that’s not the perspective that you know, I have and I’m, you know, the doctor and this and blah, blah, blah. That that’s really kind of one of the big things that I see when it comes to especially trust and respect type things.

Katie Vernoy 28:26
I think even in the establishment of the relationship, I think that that can be part of it. And and, you know, shared vision and primary goals is one of the other ones, we’ll get to that in a minute. Communication is also one that will be really important. And so all of those things, I think they all interplay, I guess, is what I’m saying. But when we think about professionals who wanted to collaborate with us, I’m gonna ask the question in a different way, what are things that they can do that do not lead to trust and respect? Besides just my way or the highway.

Curt Widhalm 29:04
I think it’s sometimes just kind of in the tone in how they talk about clients. You know, there’s just kind of a respectful way of talking about what client needs are, and being able to set them up for success. And maybe this is just me being very biased towards the way that I work, but looking at situations as opportunities for skill building, rather than needing to necessarily just manage clients, and being able to put in the structures and supports for that, that I’ve been in some treatment team meetings where I’m the only one saying, you know, this really doesn’t seem like it has a whole lot of client input into this that would maybe make this whole situation work a lot better. But I think it just comes down to a lot of the ways that people end up talking about the people that we’re serving that ends up making it really kind of like, oh, you’re somebody that I don’t really want to work with in the future.

Katie Vernoy 30:10
The other piece to this is just not knowing someone, right? I mean, I’ve had folks who quote unquote, wanted to collaborate with me who sent me a pamphlet, or threw cards at me at an event, or didn’t really have much to offer a conversation, like I didn’t understand what made them strong clinicians or whatever. I think part of trust and respect is actually getting to know who you’re working with and understanding their expertise. And, and being able to understand their perspective and professional identity. I think those pieces are are critical. And I think, I guess this is the research speaking to kind of what you were just saying, it’s, it’s seeing the alignment, but it’s also actually treating them like a professional versus a referral source. And this is where, you know, it’s I’m, I’m mentioning the business case again, but I think some people will do networking solely for the business case. A lot of people need to know what I do I need to give them all my cards and my and they’re not creating relationships, which is what’s the foundation of the treatment team.

Curt Widhalm 31:22
Yeah, that just being sold to all the time.

Katie Vernoy 31:25
Yes, yes exactly. And so sharing expertise, is potentially going to a medical office that works with your clients, and doing a lunch and learn on neurodiversity affirming practice, or something that is going to show that you’re adding to their conversation that you’re providing something to them. And, and so you’re giving them they’re getting to know you and your expertise based on actual value that you’re offering. And not just sending a pamphlet or dropping off cards or like candies or something. I think that’s the piece where I think networking is both done in insufficient and ineffective ways. When you don’t see somebody as as a relationship, as a potential team member and, and understand them better and actually do the full vetting. And so trust and respect happens at the beginning how you approach. It also happens during when you’re actually working to understand their perspective and their professional identity. What is it that they do? What is it that that you’re bringing to the table here? That one, I think therapists get it. I think that just get nervous about that advocacy and networking that happens. But, but it’s important to remember, you know, trust and respect need to be established for a strong treatment team. The biggest one, I think, especially for non co-located professionals is communication. Because you can’t just walk down the hall and talk to the psychiatrist, you actually have to create space for collaboration. And so broadly, create space for collaboration, be consistent, follow up, like do all the things. But but what have you found helpful in communicating with the treatment teams that you’ve established?

Curt Widhalm 33:24
I think making it a regular part of all of our schedules. So it’s not just kind of a, alright, we all need to react to something and scramble to get together at the same time. But the there’s a monthly or every so often, here’s what we’re working on update. And that can be done as a formal meeting, it can be done in person, or it can be done online. It can be done as an asynchronous sort of thing. But it’s the regularity of it that I see that ends up making it the most successful.

Katie Vernoy 33:57
I 100% agree, I think there’s that element of consistency and follow up that I think can be very, very challenging for a lot of clinicians, because you get you get busy, you forget. I put stuff like that in my calendar, I scheduled the next one when I am in the previous one, or in the current one. I feel like if you can really create infrastructure around communication, that’s really, really important. It’s I liked the phrase creating space for collaboration that came from one of the research articles that I read. There was another article that was talking about kind of digital communication being pretty much as effective as in person. And so I’ll link to that in the show notes. So I don’t think that in the digital age that we’re losing anything and in fact because we’re so used to teleconferencing and video conferencing, I think that we’re potentially better at digital communication than getting together in person these days. But, but I think even getting really creative I like the digital asynchronous like hey, you know, we both have HIPAA compliant emails, we can email back and forth with some of the folks, you know, we we text, if there’s something that does come up, and we have to react versus having these plan coordination meetings. And so I think it’s, you know, especially when you know, your folks really well that are on these treatment teams with you, it can be very nice to actually have open lines of communication that you can use regularly, especially for more high acuity cases, or cases that have complex things pop up where you, you want to talk to somebody that’s on the team and knows what’s going on.

Curt Widhalm 35:39
And one of the other benefits of asynchronous work is that sometimes you’re able to write those messages with your client present. So that way, your client is still able to be involved in the treatment team meetings, as well, and be able to be a part of some of the communications and how you’re able to express some of the concerns. And this can help support them to be able to advocate themselves to some of the other professionals that they might not be as comfortable with.

Katie Vernoy 36:08
I love that, because that serves that purpose. But also for folks who are like I’m insurance based how I don’t have time for all of this. It’s in a session, you’re doing concurrent documentation. And it can be part of the built service. I think, I think there’s so many reasons to do this, that that even if and we’ll talk later about, you know, kind of the insurance question, but in more detail, but I think it’s that element of being able to involve the client and fit it into the schedule that you already have. So it becomes consistent, and it becomes part of your standard operating procedure. So the next one that is, within a lot of these studies that I looked at was shared vision and primary goals understood. And we’ve talked about this a little, but I think it makes sense maybe to, to get a little bit deeper into what that means. And so when we discuss a case with our treatment team members, it can be very important to, to understand all the perspectives in the room, to incorporate all of those perspectives into a full picture. And to really get to a place where you come to some sort of an agreement on kind of the similar goals, same goals, complementary goals. But really getting to a shared vision. I think if you’re at a place where Provider A wants X and Provider B wants Y, I think you you may be working at cross purposes. And so I think being able to really get to a shared vision is important.

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Katie Vernoy 37:48
Do you have an example of where this worked really well, and maybe you didn’t start with a shared vision?

Curt Widhalm 37:54
Well, one of the things that I’ve talked about a number of times over the last couple of months is that the things that we’re incorporating in our practice is working as a DBT team. And part of each of our DBT consultations is going over a consultation agreement and built into this, you know, we kind of go through our rules each time is, you know, one of the consultation team agreements is consultation to the patient. The primary goal of this is to improve our skills to treat the clients. That this is about being able to work for their benefit. And sometimes that means that working through the discourse that happens in those meetings is us needing to get to a place of coming back to the question of what actually benefits the client here.

Katie Vernoy 38:50
What happens if you don’t agree… on what benefits a client?

Curt Widhalm 38:55
I haven’t had a situation where we haven’t been able to work through that yet. And maybe it’s just because the treatment team members that I have are all just very awesome. And we’re able to be able to work through a bunch of that stuff. But sometimes I could envision even asking the client to join in some of these meetings and to be able to advocate for themselves, here’s what I want, or here’s what I want to be able to get to the outcomes that we’re all working towards. It’s just to empower the client towards what they want, you know, I can have the best treatment plan in the world. But if it’s something that the client doesn’t agree with, then it’s not gonna go anywhere.

Katie Vernoy 39:39
I think that’s a really good starting point, which is getting back to the client and the clients goals. The thing I’m thinking about from my own practice is couples versus individuals, individual therapists and the common complaint I’m sure you’ve heard this refrain many times is that couples therapists hate individual therapists, because couples therapists are working in benefit of the couple. And all of the individual therapists want the clients to get divorced. And that’s, that’s huge conflict of shared vision, right? Like the primary goals are very different.

Curt Widhalm 39:39

Katie Vernoy 39:39
So one of the things that I’ve found in collaborating with a number of different couples counselors is, I really try to take the lead from them on what how they understand the couple and try to gain information. And I also try to share information related to what my client might not be bringing to treatment. So that there’s that we’re, not only are the shared goals present, we’re working in figuring out and supporting the couple because that’s, you know, kind of the primary goal, that’s where the treatment started. But also in in trying to make sure that that all folks really have a very clear picture on it so that we can get to a shared vision. I know that one of the couples counselors that I’ve worked with was like, and this is what I’m supporting the clients in because this is their stated goal, and I’m thinking in my head, well, I don’t know if that’s in the best interest of my client, let’s talk about this a little bit. But then being able to think about, okay, how do we work together for that vision that the clients want? And that and, and allow them to, to go through that process? I think it can be hard when you’re thinking about, Okay, well, individually, this is what’s happening. But in the larger system in the family, and the couple and whatever there are, there are different goals. And so I think being able to have a lot of conversation and get to a place of okay, I don’t know if I totally agree with what the clients what they are stating they want to do in the long run, but I’m going to support them getting to that decision on their own. You know, I’m not going to undermine, I’m not going to do anything, I’m going to be very focused on supporting that goal, versus my goal of independence or my goal of, of whatever it is. Does that make sense?

Curt Widhalm 39:39
Yeah, totally makes sense.

Katie Vernoy 39:53
And so sometimes it’s, it’s just really getting into sharing context, digging deeply. And sometimes it’s really understanding the philosophy of the folks you’re working with, a treatment orientation that that that they have, because sometimes treatment orientation is going to, you know, kind of dictate different types of, of goals for clients. But sometimes it’s the same goal. And sometimes it’s complimentary goals. And I think if you can get there that’s really, really strong. If you can’t get there, you, you truly are going to probably undermine each other’s treatment.

Curt Widhalm 42:42
Yeah, and I hear about this from people who might be earlier in their career, who are starting to test out some different theories, who might be facing some growing pains within the agencies with treatment teams that they’re working in. I’m hearing this a lot from people in like treatment centers, where they are being kind of pushed into a certain kind of theory just based on the environment that they work in. And, again, it comes down to that, how do you speak to what is going to work for the client in the best way there. And that’s really going to take, you know, kind of the trust of the team to be able to work through those situations or the trust of the overall work environment. And that’s kind of sometimes where beyond just the treatment team. And looking at the entire organization, in and of itself ends up dictating what actually works for clients. And, you know, I’ve seen this go through a lot of treatment centers, and through my career where sometimes that organizational structure is there to make that happen. And those make for good successful work environments and treatment teams. But those are very difficult to maintain over long periods of time.

Katie Vernoy 43:57
And that is a perfect intro into the next point, which is really relationship coordination. This is important in all aspects, but it’s especially important when when you’re not co-located but but even larger agencies and organizations where the treatment teaming is more ad hoc or it doesn’t have some of the other elements to it, it can be really hard to to get to some of these things. You don’t get to shared vision, you don’t have consistent communication or space for collaboration, you don’t have respect. And so relationship coordination is really identifying how you’re going to do the things above as well as as some of these additional things that are in this you know, another article that I’ll link to in the show notes. But it’s it’s something where actively working on the treatment team and kind of this meta process and coordinating how you’re doing all the work is really important and and, and this is a bigger point. And so I’m going to I’m going to talk a little bit about the broad points and then you and I can dig into what it sounds like for each of us and how we’ve done these things. But in looking at relationship coordination, the first one is that you want to identify what are the roles of each member. And this can be important when there’s multiple therapists or multiple mental health providers like psychiatrists, and therapists. I think that there’s, there’s also looking at, you know, whether it’s a family member, that’s part of the treatment team, like a parent or a caregiver, it could also be if there are community members, what roles they’re playing, and how often they’re they’re joining into these conversations. What, what insight are they bringing to the team? What interventions might they be doing? And so really looking at what are all the roles in this room, you know, kind of this virtual room that is working to the benefit of the client. And part of that is understanding how you’re bridging gaps. Because so many folks are like, I’m a one stop shop, I can do everything. It’s like, no, they can’t, and some people do the opposite. We’ve got a whole episode on defensive practices where you do very little. But um, but bridging gaps means really, kind of cultivating all the different professional perspectives on how you care for your patients or your clients. Looking at kind of the social differences, the communicational divides, understanding tasks division, who’s doing therapy, who’s doing bed management, for example? Who’s doing parenting coaching, or parent training? Who’s doing family therapy, who’s doing individual therapy? Who’s doing what, who’s going to doctor’s appointments? And so it’s, it’s looking at ways that you can actively kind of find all the tasks that need to be done and, and bridge the gaps with other professionals who can take those roles. And some of this some of this research comes from really medical model folks where it’s like nurses and and doctors and you know, kind of paramedics and social workers and therapists and so there’s, there’s a lot of different interprofessional teams that that are are talking about this. So so you can think really creatively all the different things. And so there’s the the proactive, bridging the gaps. And then there’s also the negotiating the overlap. So this is the opposite, trying to prevent the conflicts, the duplication of services, conflicting services for the same thing, and, and really getting very clear on on what the responsibilities are, as well as where people can jump in. So for example, risk assessment needs to be a mental health provider, but can can be begun by a paraprofessional or or somebody that can know to pull in. And so making sure that there’s that overlaps are not in conflict, you’re bridging gaps, you’re doing the things but you’re not, you’re not stepping on toes, but you’re not leaving anything uncovered. And so the last point from this article was creating space for cooperation, which we’ve already been talking about. But I think the idea of relationship collab coordination, actively doing this thing is really important and identifying who’s calling the meetings, who’s leading the charge? Or why are some folks, you know, when are some folks going to step up and others are not going to? And so when you think about relationship coordination, and how that might have been playing out in your treatment teams, what are the things that that maybe are some good examples to describe these concepts in a little bit more practical descriptions.

Curt Widhalm 48:44
Part of when you’re dealing with a team member, or something that seems to know all of the answers, but doesn’t necessarily see, you know, the entirety of the picture, I’m reminded of a story from one of my colleagues who was relaying that at a clinic that they were working at that the client was not being responsive to kind of the traditional trauma focused CBT treatment. And in their treatment team meetings, the psychiatrist on staff was just like, well, you need to do more CBT, you need to do more, this is what’s going to work and the entirety of the treatment team was like, this client is just not responding. They’re not getting better from any of this. And in all of the ego, the psychiatrist went into, go and show everybody how to do therapy with this client, and then found out trauma focused CBT was not working with the client. So in some of these conflicts in some of this kind of stuff, it’s just needing to be able to effectively communicate but it’s also effective communication is being able to listen as well. And so, in looking at some of these conflicts, you know, not every, you know, psychiatrist is going to jump in and have the opportunity or the structure to be like, you know, hold my beer, let me show you how to go and do this. But even sometimes, this might be the effect of helping clients, I mean, with some of the technologies and stuff now to even be able to say, you know, hey, some of the treatment team wants to be able to see what we’re doing. This might be beneficial to actually have other people be able to observe part of our session. So that way, we can get a better idea and better represent what’s going on. So that way, we can get more eyes on what’s going on. I know that there’s a lot of hesitation around kind of being judged and showing your work and that kind of stuff. But if it’s something that can be worked with a client to be like, hey, something is not as effective as it should be right here. Let’s get some more eyes on this. That’s one of those ways to help deal and make a lot of the stuff more effective here.

Katie Vernoy 51:14
I really liked that. I think that there is an element to this where being able to really be transparent, to be open to feedback, to be able to share what it is you’re doing and getting the whole team really working together to improve treatment. I love that. I do want to have a positive example of psychiatrist though because I think that we’ve been talking about kind of the stereotype of the know-it-all psychiatrists that that wants to take over treatment or own the whole treatment. I’ve had a lot of conversations with psychiatrists I was collaborating with where really, they wanted information on the week to week conversations, really looking at some more of the the details to help with diagnosis or meds management, even where they would share with me the medications that they’re prescribing, and what are the types of side effects that I could help with the client look for and, and understanding what the mechanism was just giving me that information so that in my week to week in interactions with this client, I would be able to support them. And in turn, what I would do is is recommend that they meet with their psychiatrist, if there was something going on the medication, I would follow up and potentially help with med compliance if the client was wanting to have that kind of accountability and support from me. And so it’s something where there can be that element of very positive sharing and, and collaboration where, you know, there’s definitely been psychiatrists where we’ve talked together, and both of us have slightly shifted our case conceptualization, you know, potentially even diagnosis on our charts, because of the different pieces that were brought up. Another, another example is a dietician that was asking very different questions than I was asking for my, my therapy client, and uncovering more of a severity of an eating disorder than I had seen in my practice. And so I think there’s there’s that element of them bringing their professional perspective to bear, me bringing my professional perspective to bear and being able to create a more robust picture of the client and case conceptualization, leading to stronger treatment, and then each of us supporting the other in treatment compliance. And so I think that there’s, there’s so much possibility for really positive collaboration. It’s just having folks that are willing to do it, and being able to create that space to collaborate appropriately, while making sure that you’re bridging gaps and negotiating overlaps.

Curt Widhalm 53:57
So I want to maybe turn this conversation to some of the practicalities on things because whether it’s, you know, needing to, I don’t know, actually see clients, be able to bill for those client hours. A lot of this stuff can be very time consuming, especially if it’s not the same client and the same treatment team for your entire caseload. So how do you suggest, you know, not making this just kind of an overwhelming like case management portion of people’s work?

Katie Vernoy 54:30
I think one of the pieces that you mentioned that I want to just reiterate here is potentially doing it as part of your sessions with your client. And so adding a collaboration time, you know, part of the conversation is about what you’re going to send to the psychiatrist and doing it in that session, or with one of the other team members. But outside of the client session, I think that there’s setting regular meetings, making sure that there is a mechanism to quickly and effectively communicate. So whether it’s calls or emails or texts or messaging through a portal or whatever it is, there’s there’s definitely different portals and structures that can be set up even with clinicians who are not in the same practice. And so lots of technological advances that can support to that. But I guess the first thing that I should have mentioned this, right off the bat is, is getting an appropriate release of information and understanding how much your client wants you to share and not share. And so, so those are the basics is release of information, regular meetings, communication strategies, potentially doing some of the work inside the session. But you mentioned about kind of billing and insurance and that kind of stuff. What is your thought process on whether you bill or or don’t bill for these collaborative conversations or treatment team meetings?

Curt Widhalm 56:05
I look at it as I factor into the fees that I charge clients that I’m going to be doing a certain amount of outside of session work, and I incorporate that into the fees that I charge clients for their sessions. Now, I’m not in network with any of the insurance companies. So this is something that I can completely do on my own. And I also have good enough boundaries, that I’m not going to be spending hours upon hours upon hours for each client in between sessions, chasing down every conceivable person that they’ve ever met in their life. So to me, it’s a combination of having the session fees tied in with it, as well as having good enough boundaries to be efficient in the work that I do for them with other professionals in between sessions.

Katie Vernoy 56:59
For insurance, I think it is a definitely a different picture. For me, I I kind of set it up for myself that I had the caseload that I could do some of these extra activities for that I was not able to bill for theoretically, there are some meetings that are billable, you know, kind of collateral meetings with folks that are really within their family or their extended personal lives, there might be some opportunities for billing there, I definitely have had conversations with parents or other things that were billable to insurance. I think it’s family therapy without the client present or something like that. But, but I think being really creative about how you take care of these responsibilities. For most folks being in isolation, which is a huge problem, right? It’s something that’s not fun, it’s not pleasant. And it’s not good for your clinical practice if you’re completely isolated. And so if you’re, if you already have some infrastructure in place for how you interact with your with other clinicians, of the networking activities that you do, that can be, it can serve two purposes, it can keep you from being isolated, and it can give you a quick mechanism to be able to meet and vet some of these other folks. But once the relationships are established, I think that there can be asynchronous collaboration that happens if you’re not able to do the 15 minute phone call in your day, you can do a quick five minute email or a two minute email or whatever it is. And so I think it’s it’s something where figuring out how to incorporate this in to the business as you set it up can be really can be really helpful. Because if you don’t have any mechanism in place, you’re not going to do it. For out of network foes, like you, I think a lot of folks will will incorporate it into their fees. So this is just part of my doing business. Some folks will actually do more of the bill by the by the minute, by the hour, kind of and so some of these services are seen as extra services. And so only folks that are using these services get charged for them. But I think that gets confusing and frustrating for clients. So I don’t know that I recommend that. But I think that there’s some of those things that can be considered when you’re setting it up. But clinically, I think the biggest piece that you can do is you know kind of going through early in treatment and talking to your client about this possibility and have a mechanism to get a release of information. I have one in my electronic health records. So I just send it very quickly, they fill it out, I’m able to immediately interact with their person. Determining how much time you have to spend, if it’s a regular collaboration, setting regular meetings, having communication strategies in place, and and making sure that you’re able to take care of the clients within the infrastructure that is how your business is set up.

Curt Widhalm 1:00:07
So the big takeaways in a lot of this seem to be work with people that you’re going to work well with. And in those situations where you don’t work well with them, find ways to work well with them. And speak to the benefits of the clients, to incorporate them as much as possible, even in these meetings and to help your clients be able to advocate for the goals that they want through things. And this is not something that can just be kind of left to Alright, here’s maybe something that we all agree that we should be doing. But actually making it a regular part of treatment, because the evidence of how well it works ends up really doing a lot better than just kind of treatment as usual.

Katie Vernoy 1:00:55
And it makes treatment more fun, really. I mean, it’s so much nicer to not be alone on cases. I think some of it is the relief when you have high acuity cases that you’re not by yourself on the cases. And for some, it’s just makes it more interesting. And you have someone that you can talk with to understand your cases better. I just, all all around I think it’s, it’s helpful both to your clients and to you. And so I, I just highly recommend creating networked treatment teams. We can have a whole other conversation on how it supports your business. But I think clinically, it is definitely something that you want to make sure that you’re incorporating with a lot of your clients, it really is way more fun.

Curt Widhalm 1:01:40
You can find our show notes over at And you can buy this course at That’s our learning platform that we are adding more and more content to. Follow us on our social media and join our Facebook group the Modern Therapists Group to continue the conversation about this and any of the other topics that we talk about or things that you want us to talk about. And consider supporting us through Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee as other ways that you can help keep Katie and I doing what we’re doing. And until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.

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Katie Vernoy 1:02:22
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Curt Widhalm 1:02:37
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