Is This My Stuff? How therapists can sort through countertransference: An Interview with Dr. Amy Meyers, LCSW
Curt and Katie interview Dr. Amy Meyers on countertransference. We talk about what countertransference is, how therapists typically struggle when working in the transference and countertransference, how the profession’s relationship to countertransference has changed, and what therapists can do to better understand themselves. We also talk a bit about the blank slate.
Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.Transcript
An Interview Dr. Amy Meyers, LCSW
Dr. Amy Meyers, PhD, LCSW is a professor, psychotherapist, and clinical social worker, trained in psychoanalysis at The National Psychotherapy Association for Psychoanalysis. She has worked extensively in the field of social work. Dr. Meyers has 30 years of practice experience and has been teaching in higher education for the past 18 years. She maintains a private practice in NYC. She is an advisory board member to the Sibling Abuse and Aggression Research Advocacy Initiative at the University of New Hampshire and has presented nationally about sibling abuse. She has also published on this topic and trained staff at the Department of Social Services and metropolitan agencies. She has conducted numerous trainings and workshops on diversity, locally and nationally and transformed a Long Island School District’s approach to culturally responsive and inclusive teaching. She is the 2021 recipient of the Long Island Business News Diversity Award for Educating Communities. She serves as Vice President of The New York State Social Work Education Association. Dr. Meyers hosts the podcast “What Would Dr. Meyers Do?”
In this podcast episode, we look at countertransference
We’re talking about a topic we haven’t touched on yet: countertransference. We are joined by an expert in countertransference, Dr. Amy Meyers, LCSW
What is countertransference?
“Countertransference is much more than being self reflective and self aware, it’s really understanding oneself on a very, very deep level. So that if one understands what is being tapped into emotionally on the therapist side, then we’re able to be armed with the ability to distinguish whether or not it’s our stuff that’s getting in the way from intervening with a client or relating to them. Or if it is, in fact, something that the client is bringing into the relationship and is kind of a representation of what goes on in the outer world for the client.” – Dr. Amy Meyers, LCSW
- Beyond self-awareness and understanding oneself
- We have experiences and make them our own and expect people to respond to me in the same way as others have in the past
What do therapists struggle with when addressing transference and countertransference?
- When therapists don’t know themselves well enough, they will not be able to identify when countertransference is coming up
- Therapists will often avoid conflict or put too much of themselves in the room without full assessment
- Therapists misunderstand the utility of countertransference and try to avoid it
- Simplification of the blank slate. Dr. Meyers’ understanding is that it is avoiding unintentionally putting your emotions in the session, which gets in the way of clients’ projecting emotions on the therapist (transference)
How should therapists be taught to use countertransference?
“It’s really important to be mindful of positive countertransference as well, because sometimes when we feel really aligned or identified or with someone or just like them, then we might not push them into the areas they need to go because we want to maintain that likeability.” – Dr. Amy Meyers, LCSW
- Looking at how you feel about the interactions with your clients and your feelings about your clients as individuals
- Treating therapists as human beings with emotions and explore how their humanity interacts with their work with their clients
How has the field changed its relationship with countertransference?
- People have moved into quicker therapy and more manualized treatments
- There is less focus on longer term, relationship based treatment rather than tools and strategies
- Supervisors and trainers are less focused on training therapists in this element of the work
What can therapists do when they become aware of their countertransference reactions
- Considering other options rather than what is familiar
- Using the relationship in therapy as a corrective emotional experience
- We discuss a couple of case examples to explore how to work with countertransference with real clients
- Sorting out what is self-disclosure versus use of self in session and how are each can be helpful
- Go to therapy
- Go to supervision
- Learn and read more about countertransference
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:
We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Amy’s website: www.amymeyersphd.org
Linktree: www.linktr.ee/drmeyerspod
Instagram: @drmeyerspod
Facebook: @drmeyerspod
Tik Tok: @drmeyerspod
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:
Therapists Are Not Robots: How We Can Show Humanity in the Room
The Balance Between Boundaries and Humanity, An Interview with Jamie Marich, Ph.D.
Who we are:
Curt Widhalm, LMFT
Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note:
Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:
Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):
Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).
… 0:00
(Opening Advertisement)
Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm, and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 0:15
Welcome back modern therapists, this is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm, with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about the things that we do in our practice, often exploring the things that we don’t really talk about a whole lot in our field. We hear from our listeners, and quite often, like, You guys are the ones we’re having these conversations that nobody else really is. And so we’re always glad when we are able to kind of circle around to some conversations that are even new for us to talk about. And we haven’t really dived in in any sort of depth to countertransference. And working with that, and even being able to identify that and helping us with our discussion on this is Dr. Amy Myers, LCSW. And really glad to have you helping us with this conversation today.
Dr. Amy Meyers 1:08
Well, thanks for having me. I’m thrilled to be here.
Katie Vernoy 1:11
The first question we ask everyone who comes on our podcast is who are you? And what are you putting out into the world?
Dr. Amy Meyers 1:19
Well, who am I is a very deep question. But who I am I for the purposes of this, I am a Professor of Social Work at Malloy University on Long Island. And I am also a psychodynamic psychotherapist, with 30 years of practice experience, and I maintain a small private practice in Manhattan. And now I guess I joined the world of podcasters because I’m coming up on my one year anniversary of my own podcast that focuses. I’ll tell you all about that at the end, it is called ‘What Would Dr. Myers Do?’ but it focuses on countertransference. So, how fitting is it that I’m here to talk about countertransference?
Curt Widhalm 2:00
So, one of the things that we ask is kind of a learning process, it not to shame anybody. But what are therapists usually get wrong in working with transference and countertransference?
Dr. Amy Meyers 2:13
Well, that’s a great question. I think it’s about not being aware of oneself. And in order to be aware of other people and their transference, you have to be aware of your countertransference. So, is it okay, if I back that up to what is countertransference? Yeah, I think it needs a lot of clarification. I think it can sometimes be overused and sometimes simplified, right? Sometimes people just say how important self awareness is in this field. But countertransference is much more than being self reflective and self aware, it’s really understanding oneself on a very, very deep level, so that if one understands what is being tapped into emotionally on the therapist side, then we’re able to be armed with the ability to distinguish whether or not it’s our stuff that’s getting in the way from intervening with a client or relating to them, or if it is, in fact, something that the client is bringing into the relationship and is kind of a representation of what goes on in the outer world for the client. So, let me see if I can give my definition in a way or conceptualization of transference and countertransference that in a way that I try and help my students conceptualize. So, I say that we move through this world, having had a lot of experiences as we were growing up with significant others and people in the broader community in our environment, whether it’s schools, with peers, with teachers, with mentors, religious community, whatever it might be, and we take in those experiences, and we make them our own, right. Meaning that if I had an extremely critical mother, I take in that messaging, and I believe it, it becomes my self perception. So that’s what I mean by taking it in, internalizing it, and make it my own. And then I moved through the world externalizing, that, right, projecting that into the world. Expecting others to receive me or respond to me, in the same way. You know, staying on the student realm, one of the ways that I help my students understand this is to think about students who come into the classroom and are extremely quiet versus those who are extremely vocal. Now I am an authority figure in a classroom just by the mere nature of probably having more knowledge about what I’m teaching, and then they are receiving and also because there’s, I’m evaluating, right so that that immediately propels me into authority, authority role. And so clients if they had a critical parent, or you know, experienced bullying or whatever it might be that shaped them may feel that their experiences, voices, opinions, perceptions, views aren’t going to be well received and so they stay quiet, right, versus the ones who may have had more positive experiences and are free to express themselves. Now, obviously, that’s not the only reason why somebody is quiet in the classroom. We don’t want a one size fits all. But it’s just an example.
Katie Vernoy 5:13
So, when new clinicians especially are starting to tiptoe into this idea of transference and countertransference, where do they stumble? What are the what are the difficulties that they have in trying to use that within their clinical work?
Dr. Amy Meyers 5:30
I’m someone who believes that anybody who’s doing this work should probably have been on the other side of the couch, and should have had their own experiences in therapy where they can become extremely emotionally attuned to themselves, kind of understand how and why they think the way they do feel, the way they do act the way they do, and move through this world the way that they do. A lot of folks don’t do that internal work. And so when they approach work with clients, they don’t have the ability, as I was saying earlier to distinguish, who are the feelings really coming from? And if I don’t understand that, then I can’t intervene in a way that’s beneficial to the client, I might just be responding based on my intuitiveness, or instinct or stuff I haven’t worked out. So I think that that’s a huge challenge when I mean, one big theme I have amongst beginners, certainly, and a lot of seasoned folks, too, is dealing with confrontation. Right? People don’t like them. It’s like the ugly C word. The other ugly C word. It’s, you know, seen as mean, cruel, hostile. And confrontation doesn’t have to be it’s got a lot to do with tone, timing, context, right. But if one’s own inner experience is having a lot of difficulty dealing with anger or upset, then somebody’s going to avoid those kinds of communications and conversations. And again, you know, if somebody has a client who’s upset about something, somebody might just impulsively respond, get defensive. Or because of feeling anxious, may apologize. And that doesn’t always serve the client. Doesn’t mean that a therapist can’t be wrong and should apologize at times. But that’s that’s the piece is that the therapist has to understand, am I apologizing because the client deserves my apology, and I made a mistake, or because I’m really scared of my clients anger.
Curt Widhalm 7:35
I want to go back for a moment on this because especially talking with early career clinicians on this is some of the, I guess, stories that I hear, and even going back to some of the ways that I was taught about countertransference is that it’s something to be avoided. It’s something that is just like, This is bad, don’t have it. And so, you know, I feel like, you know, this is probably not for all of our listeners here. But for other people who’ve just been kind of like, you know, countertransference is this bad thing, don’t go there. I feel like there’s a step in the middle there. That’s like, Okay, you’re talking like, alright, notice this, be able to, you know, see where it’s coming from, confront it. But for people who need kind of this corrective, like, No, this is something that happens, here’s how to notice it. What is it that you’re hoping your students get out of going to therapy, being able to notice what their reactions are to things as you’re working in supervision? How do you point out countertransference as it comes up?
Dr. Amy Meyers 8:41
Well, first of all, I have to say, I have never heard that before. So that was…
Curt Widhalm 8:46
Full of surprises. Yeah.
Dr. Amy Meyers 8:49
Wow, that it’s a bad thing and avoid it. I mean, to me, that’s like avoiding your humaneness. How do you do that?
Katie Vernoy 8:55
Oh, that was a whole blank slate thing, right? I mean, we were supposed to not actually exist as human beings in the room.
Dr. Amy Meyers 9:03
That was, that’s not how I understood the blank slate thing. The blank slate thing, according to my understanding, is that if we don’t show our emotions, and we’ve moved a long way from there, at least I have, because I was trained slightly in that way, psychoanalytically. Is that if we showed our emotions, then we are getting in the way of the clients potential projections, their own transference. So, let me back up a little transference just just for those who may be a little confused transference is, the client’s projections onto the therapist. Countertransference is the therapist projections onto the clients. I think it wasn’t about not having feelings, because then we’d be dead. It was about, it was about really managing them. And Curt, when you were, you know, when I was sitting in the midst of my silent shock, as you were saying that, my mind was spinning to some other work I do which is around diversity, equity and inclusion. And one of the things that I always begin with, is it’s not my goal for you not to have biases, because then you wouldn’t be human. It’s my goal to have you understand and manage your biases and become more knowledgeable about what you’re biased about. So that hopefully, those biases can shift. And it’s kind of the same idea about countertransference is that if you’re just acting without consciousness, based on your life experiences and how other people have responded or related to you, and that’s how we’ve developed our worldview, then if we just operate from the hip, without understanding what is creating that, then I think that leads to really dysfunctional relationships.
Katie Vernoy 10:44
And if the dysfunctional relationship is with your client, it seems like that could be very, very harmful.
Dr. Amy Meyers 10:51
I believe so. Or just certainly not helpful. I guess it could be on a spectrum from not helpful to harmful depending on what you’re acting out.
… 10:59
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Katie Vernoy 11:01
So how do you think countertransference should be taught? Like, what are the, you know, like, what are the things that we should understand about? I’m hearing that there’s a deep awareness, there’s the understanding of what’s mine, what’s the client’s and then and moving forward with that. But then what? What do we do with that?
Dr. Amy Meyers 11:20
Okay, I mean, to me, it’s all about understanding and sorry, Curt, because I think you were also asking that, and I didn’t get to that piece. So thank you, Katie, for raising that again, which is, how do you teach it? What do you do with it? So when people are processing their experiences with their clients, whether it’s in supervision, or maybe sometimes they bring this stuff to therapy. Because it’s touched something upon them, right? But if they bring it to supervision, and they’re talking about what happened, to me, it’s imperative to say, Well, how did that impact you? How do you feel about that? And also getting to how do you feel about your client? Is this a client that you look forward to seeing? If not, why not? If so, why? Because it’s really important to be mindful of positive countertransference as well, because sometimes when we feel really aligned or identified or with someone or just like them, then we might not push them into the areas they need to go because we want to maintain that likeability. Because not usually when we like somebody else, they like us. And it feels good to be liked. And so sometimes, we don’t want to mess with that. So I think, you know, teaching it, it sounds pretty simple. But a lot of people don’t know how to do it, which is just to, and it’s not about treating the therapist as a client. It’s about just, again, treating them as a human being with emotions and acknowledging that they have them, and how can we learn from them? And how can we see how that comes into interaction and their work with the client?
Curt Widhalm 12:47
I wonder how much of the, I guess disparity that it feels like is, you know, just as far as what Katie and my experience has been is, I don’t know the reputation that I’ve heard of kind of like the way that East Coast therapists tend to be trained is more in the psychoanalytic tradition. Out here on the West Coast, it seems like a lot more push towards CBT, lot more humanistic kinds of things, which does include a lot more of creating space, at least on the humanistic side for some of the therapists sort of stuff. But I’m not completely ignoring the psycho analysts here on the west coast, but they don’t seem to be as prevalent as on the east coast. So I’m…
Dr. Amy Meyers 13:25
That’s really curious. That’s, I wonder why. You know, what do you make of that?
Curt Widhalm 13:30
You know, I’ve never been asked why on this question before but…
Katie Vernoy 13:33
Curt’s been put on the spot.
Dr. Amy Meyers 13:35
That’s what I do. What I do. Where does this come from? What makes this happen?
Curt Widhalm 13:41
It seems to me I don’t know, from the outside end of things, it seems like there’s a lot more on the East Coast side of things that to remain more in the psychoanalytic traditions. Maybe it’s just the wild west out here, where there’s just kind of a little bit more freedom to pick and choose and do things. But it does seem to me when I talk with a lot more East Coast clinicians that analysis as a part of training seems to be something that is more regularly done, acknowledged. And for us out here, it does seem to lend to some of these things where even the supervisors don’t push supervisees into looking at countertransference. That it is something where it’s the people who don’t know leading the people who don’t know and that’s just kind of perpetuating some of the issues that you’re talking about.
Dr. Amy Meyers 14:35
That’s really interesting, but also if you’re not as inclined to be trained in psychoanalysis, or psychodynamic psychotherapy, and I think that there’s a bit of a difference, and I think that we are moving more to psychodynamic from psychoanalytic because psychoanalytic once upon a time was considered something that you do several times a week, right? And nobody has the time for that certainly on the East Coast. We’re all running on to the next thing. So I think there has been a movement and even just evidenced by, like, when I went for my training, it was 10 years, 10 years of training. Now you can do these programs in anywhere from two to four. So just that kind of speaks to an understanding that, well, I think all of us are in a very different place in terms of also waiting for results, waiting for outcomes, waiting to feel better, you know, not as being able to tolerate the idea that therapy takes time. So there is also a lot of CBT out here on the East Coast. And I think for things like CBT, you don’t probably need to be as self aware, because you’re really offering tools and ways of doing things and trying to shift behaviors with some concrete tools, it’s a different way of working. And I’ll say that for myself, over many years, I’ve become more eclectic in my work, because I think that, as I’m saying, people have different abilities to tolerate, you know, not seeing the outcomes immediately, right. I think I mean, we’re a society full of impulse control issues and needs for immediate gratification. So you can either get on board, or you can be, you know, working with your two clients a week. So instead of a full practice, So, you know, it’s… What was your, what was your question? Or was it an observation?
Curt Widhalm 16:25
You know, it was, it was more of an observation. That there’s just kind of, you know, in perpetuating maybe some of the problems that when it comes to actually acknowledging countertransference comes in. If you don’t have great models, in supervisors and colleagues and being able to look at it, then who’s really pushing you to do the work? Who’s teaching you to go in and do the things that make you uncomfortable or, you know, not be likeable in, in therapy? Because you do have that countertransference to be liked by your client?
Dr. Amy Meyers 16:58
Well, that makes complete sense, right? If you don’t have a model for anything in this life, if you think about it, how do you know? Right? How do you know what to do? How to be, how to act? What’s appropriate, what’s not appropriate?
Katie Vernoy 17:08
Yeah, right on. I actually, on the west coast kind of grew up psychodynamic that was I was trained psycho dynamically. And then I worked in community mental health, and it was all behavioral, cognitive-behavioral. And so I have, I think, grounding in both. And I feel like when we’re talking, you’re speaking to this awareness. And, and my impression, and so correct me if I’m wrong, is that a lot of psycho dynamic work is that if you were aware that change will happen. And I think that the shift with CBT is you make behavior change. And so there are specific behavioral changes that happen. And so I think that, you know, Curt and I are shifting more into that behavioral thing. It’s like, okay, well, what do I do with that awareness? What are the interventions that I have for myself, when I am aware that I have this type of countertransference? And so that may not be the best question. You know, like, I don’t know that we’re going to get where we need to go with that question. But I think there’s that element of, there’s so much that I think we can be aware of, there’s so much nuance, especially if you’re looking at what’s the client’s and what’s mine. And then there’s also what’s ours together, you know, especially when there’s so many differences and so much lived experience and expectation based on who we are and how we show up in the room that it feels like it gets very complicated very quickly. And so I don’t know if maybe a case example would be helpful, or some way to really talk through how do I use this information effectively to be able to then work with my clients more effectively?
Dr. Amy Meyers 18:42
First of all, that’s a great question. And it reminds me of my own therapy, right, that I was in for numerous years, where I would often say, I’m aware, I’m aware, I’m aware. I’m aware. Now what?
Katie Vernoy 18:57
Right.
Dr. Amy Meyers 18:58
Absolutely. And so I certainly understand that question and that feeling. And I think that the reality is that awareness does not lead to change. What awareness leads to is an ability to consider how you feel, how you move through this world, and that there’s potential to shift what you know, and what is familiar. And we tend to stay what is familiar with what is familiar because it’s comfortable.
Katie Vernoy 19:25
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Meyers 19:26
And so being pushed to consider options of either your interpersonal issues, let’s not say either, let’s just focus on interpersonal issues, because that seems to be what, I don’t know. I’ll just throw out some random number 90% of the population is struggling with, right. So if you understand that you can move, think differently, feel differently, shift how you are receiving these messages based on countertransference. But so okay, yes, I understand that I had a very critical mother, but that doesn’t mean that that’s how Person A, B, and C is thinking about you as well and will receive you, right. So I think that a lot of the progress in therapy is from the relationship between the client and the therapist. And it’s kind of like an a correct, a corrective emotional experience and being re-parented. Because how the therapist responds to you, hopefully, is in a very different way than you’ve experienced, right, in your early life. And that is transformative, I think. So an example, I’m happy to give an example. But but I have, I have several examples. And I’m not sure which is the most helpful or, you know, if one really understands this stuff, by really expounding on one deeply as opposed to a couple, but I’m going to try and see what happens. And you can steer me where you like. So one example, I had a client recently who, very close to my age, a little bit older, who has an elderly mother, a little bit older than my surviving father. Her mother lived with her was, is living with her. And she was finding it extremely difficult to deal with her mother’s dementia, which was mild, because I think that’s a an extremely difficult thing is when a parent is in this new phase of functioning, and there is so much unresolved work with that parent, that it’s hard sometimes to see the dementia as dementia and not just as this critical parent or this annoying parent or, you know, doing and saying things that are completely inappropriate, that has to do with the dementia, as opposed to you know, the person in whom they were and how they related to you growing up. Here’s the thing is I completely identify with that, because my mother passed away a couple of years ago from dementia, and I did have a conflictual relationship with her if you haven’t been able to tell that with the example that I keep I keep rebounding to, which is the critical parent. And and before I was aware of the diagnosis, right, there’s this period in between where the behavior changes, but you can’t quite place it and don’t really know what’s happening. So I was very angry and upset and would let her know that. Whereas I felt like later on, if I had an understanding of what was happening, I probably would have been a hell of a lot kinder to her. So what I was saying with my client was identifying with her frustration, right? That’s not the countertransference. But the countertransference is seeing her response to her mother, and getting really bothered by it. Because it was tapping into how my mother would relate to me and understanding that, and also what was going on in the here and now, right with my own mother and feeling like where’s her empathy? And why can’t she just tolerate that and stop and intellectually understand what was happening with her mother, but she couldn’t because the emotional piece was too large. And countertransferentialy, I was struggling with the exact same thing. So how did I have this expectation of her when I couldn’t even live that myself? So that’s one example, if I wasn’t aware of what was happening, I would keep directing her to like, be kinder to her mother and be more trying, is there any way that you can be more empathic towards her? Is there any way that you can communicate your needs to her, you know, blah, blah, blah, right? But no, her mother was limited, she couldn’t do it. But when you’re going through the same thing at the same time, it’s very, as you said before, messy or clouded. Right. So my knowing that, again, what is awareness gets you, my understanding, intellectually that I was struggling with the exact same thing that she was. Did that help me? Yes, it did. Very much so because then I could process it outside of the therapy session. And that would arm me with the ability to go back the next time to be more understanding and patient and separate my experience from hers.
Curt Widhalm 24:09
How did you come to that realization? Like, can you walk us through kind of what you’re doing expertise work in your own countertransference looks like in order to be able to identify that?
Dr. Amy Meyers 24:22
That’s a great question. And I honestly might, my gut reaction is no I can’t. Because, because it it has become just such a part of me and I think with anything it’s like the more you practice something it just made me think of a religion even though I’m so not religious right? But like it’s like, it’s self awareness. This understanding on this level is like a religion. The more you practice it, the more, the easier gets, the less comes like a lesson and it just becomes a part of your system and way of functioning. I mean, it is such a part of me that I do this in my friendships, you know, in my relationship, it’s, it’s sometimes a little overdone. But I think on for the most part, it helps me to have healthier communications and more satisfying relationships.
Katie Vernoy 25:16
I guess my question is, what’s the this? Is it just kind of paying attention? Is it asking yourself questions like, what what is it that you’re, you’re doing in it sounds like an all of your relationships to stay aware of your of your piece of it.
Dr. Amy Meyers 25:30
It’s almost like I’m kind of inside myself and outside of myself at the same time. Do you ever have a conversation where, as you’re having it, you’re kind of saying, Why did I say this? Should I be saying this? You know, is this the best route to be going? And if not, while it’s happening, immediately after? I think we all you know, not we all certainly don’t all, a lot of us do that. But we do it in a very judgmental, self critical way. And so I think that having done this as a process of therapy, and a process of supervision and a process of training, it’s been done with a kinder voice. So it just becomes kind of a reflexive process. It’s like a muscle that you’re working. I think. I, Curt, like you said earlier, you never you know, you’ve never thought about this. You never been asked this or I’ve never been asked that question before. That was a great question. And will certainly resonate after we are done with this episode. But I hope that that helps a little bit in my trying to claim that.
… 26:27
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Dr. Amy Meyers 26:27
Can I give one more example? Because I’m living this this very moment. And so maybe you can help me, right. So maybe there’s more to this than meets the eye? Which again, like, I’m aware that I’m feeling these things, but have I processed it? No, I haven’t talked about it with anybody yet. So this week, we all know what’s going on in Israel. I am Jewish. So that is my identity, culturally. As I just said, I’m not religious at all. So I had a client and a few clients this week, who spent pretty much the entire session talking about the horror, and the devastation, and their own identity, and how this is impacting them. So it’s very heavy right now. I am holding them emotionally. And I am trying to manage the same feelings that are coming up in me that I’ve already been aware of before these sessions, but that is being deeply tapped into while they are speaking. So with one of my clients, just this morning, she had recently broken up with a boyfriend, and she’s really kind of experiencing that sense of loss. And she alluded to that. So you know, here’s where I am this week, I’m still I was doing really well. And now I’m struggling with that, but then kind of launches into this whole thing about Israel. And I’m hearing that the theme is loss, right. And then I’m hearing that she feels attacked at work by a supervisor, she had her evaluation and the way that the feedback was delivered. So what do we have here we have themes of loss and attack, right? So these everyday life things right are coming into this much bigger picture of what she’s presenting. And I’m feeling an immense sense of loss. And I’m thinking as this is happening, what is going on with me? Right, I do not have any loss right now in my life. But abstractly, the loss I’m experiencing is, I think vicariously through other people, as well as feeling like I’m being attacked. So the loss and attack that I’m identifying with her I’m experiencing the attack is in that this is a very, she’s feeling attacked, sorry, by her boss, for example, right in the way that her feedback was delivered. And it’s feeling very personalized. And that’s what this Israeli Israel issue is feeling like, right? It’s it’s it’s not feeling like, it is an attack. So what what is it tapping into me? One is the identification with profound sadness with the state of affairs, right, and this shared cultural identity, but the countertransference, and identification and projection are parts of countertransference. But the part of the countertransference that is tapping into my stuff is this sense of aloneness. And there’s the loss, the sense of aloneness and people not really understanding the magnitude of one’s or in this case, my experience, right? So and this, for me, personally, is a persistent challenge I have in people not knowing how to listen. So here I am, as a therapist, I think I’m pretty good at it. I think that this is what draws people to me outside of my profession, my ability to listen, my ability to empathize my ability not to, you know, jump in with how I’m feeling, right, or my own personal example or silver lining the situation, but being really attuned and I don’t think I’ve ever been aware until the last several years that it sure as hell would be nice sometimes to get that back. And I’m now coming to the point that if I have friendships where it’s not reciprocal, not all the time certainly doesn’t have to be, you know, 50-50. But if it is not generally reciprocal, I’m not sure I’m interested anymore. So the countertransference here has been in this sense of loss experienced by the client, tapped into in me, which is represented not parallel-wise by me losing through death, right, or loss of a relationship, physically, but emotionally loss and aloneness in that way. And the upset, right, that she’s feeling about the horror of what’s going on in Israel, is being translated in me as I’m listening equally to the heart, trust me, but also with upset or anger at those friends who haven’t reached out. So, that was a very kind of long winded perhaps, or deep analysis of what might be going on for me and to tell you, how do I know that or, you know, all I can say is, I’m telling you just what I’m feeling, that’s really all I can say. And the processing of that needs to happen, I think I need to do more work around that by speaking to a colleague, right, like a peer supervision group that I have, and putting that out there. So that I can look for other aspects of what I might be feeling and how that might play into how I respond or don’t respond or potentially avoid things that the client needs to look at, or process or have space for.
Katie Vernoy 31:54
It seems like to me that there’s so much that has, you know, there’s so many elements of what you have been experiencing in this this moment of time, and then also the parallel experiences of your client. And as you were talking, I was, I was hearing the attempt to not over identify or to, to engulf kind of your client’s experience into your own experience of what’s happening in the world at large. But also recognizing that some of the topics that she’s touching on are resonating for things that are related, but unrelated. And so being able to really explore what are my emotional needs right now? And how do I take care of those so that I can be fully present for this client that is in this same global crisis, global horror, whatever we want to however you want to describe it, but also has these other unrelated but related in a way, situations that it’s bringing up for her? I feel like in what when you were talking, it was like there’s so much that’s that’s kind of attached to your experience, that being able to sort that out to be able to really understand your client’s experience and all the things that are attached to her experience, it becomes much harder when your emotions are so big and so huge. And so to be able to explore and say, Okay, I need to get my needs met here, or I need to do this outside of therapy is really powerful. We’re running low on time. But this is a really interesting conversation to me. So I have another question. It’s, it’s something where as a human and in that moment with whether there’s shared identity, shared grief, shared trauma, is there a way to recognize and tease out countertransference in a way that you can use it as a connection here, because it also feels like there could be a sense of shared experience that could be helpful in the therapy room, but, but if only if you can kind of tease it away from the things that would not be helpful to the client.
Dr. Amy Meyers 33:55
You hit it right on the head, is that only if you can tease it away. Right. And so one of the things that I always say is that if you use your countertransference, and by use it, I think that it’s important to distinguish between self disclosure and use of self, right. Use of self as being aware of what’s happening in you, and how can you use that to direct what the client, you know, direct an intervention or an approach to what the client needs. Self disclosure is exactly how it sounds right is that I’m going to share something of myself with the client in hoping that she will feel a sense of connection or feeling understood. But I just want to make it very clear that I think that there are lots of lots of ways of conveying empathy and that one understands without having to self disclose. So I’m not big on self disclosure, perhaps because I was trained psychoanalitic. And so as you said the blank slate right and I think I’ve come a long way from kind of positioning myself with that blank slate to just being more of who I am, you know, and sometimes using humor and just letting my personality show a little bit and still clients feel like I really don’t know anything about you. And I think but you know, the way that I relate, you know how I’m going to respond, right? You don’t necessarily know the intimate details of things. But going back to your question.
Katie Vernoy 35:12
How you can use that shared experience without it being overshadowed by countertransference, I guess.
Dr. Amy Meyers 35:18
Right. So interestingly enough, this very morning, I did struggle in my head with should I share, should I share, should I share? And I did self disclose this, the magnitude of what I was feeling in an effort to help her create space that she needs to share her feelings and her need for understanding with her friends, because she is the caregiver. And so I, you know, related that, you know, I actually, this is something that I strive to work on, too, and doesn’t go away overnight. And it’s about making room for yourself. And the idea that people actually want to hear you and consider that you might actually depriving somebody who is a true friend from being able to help you in the way that you help them. And that it would actually be a gift to somebody who wants to help you in that way. And for the friend that doesn’t, well, maybe it’s a consideration of Do you want to continue to be friends with that person?. So, I really pulled directly on my very recent experience of this, and gave it to the client. And she actually thanked me. And for me, that was probably transformative for me in a way that again, I have not processed yet, is to be able to share myself with a client, have it well received, and even find it helpful. And there yet again, is another parallel process to my own life, right, with hoping and wanting others to receive me in that way. So that’s why I always say, if we think we go into this profession to heal others, we are mistaken, we do go into heal others, but we are 50% of the equation. And I think that’s the luxury of this work is that I get to grow professionally and personally, as I’m helping others to, you know, feel more satisfied with their lives. So yeah, thanks for asking that question. That was a good one.
Curt Widhalm 37:11
So to kind of wrap up here, what would you recommend for people to continue to do to further develop their own countertransference work?
Dr. Amy Meyers 37:23
Okay, go to therapy. If I haven’t said that already, right, or insinuated that. Go to supervision, right, because there is a distinction, and be open to sharing your work, because I think it’s also very scary to share our work because it makes us feel vulnerable. And we’re showing sides of ourselves and our professional self. And we’re open to critique. But this is, you know, this is a field where you kind of can’t separate separate being assessed by, I was trying to kind of make the analogy to the business world where your boss is your boss, they tell you that you’re doing well, or that you’re not doing well, what needs to be improved. And when we go to supervision in this field, we are going to someone, hopefully with more expertise, or really just another lens. And even though we might be being evaluated, we can’t really grow unless we expose ourselves in a way that allows us to understand who we are, as we’re doing this work. Yeah, it’s hard work, you know, doing this work is hard work. It’s hard work, because of the emotional drain, because of the processing that I’m doing in my own head, as much as I’m being there for the client. So I’m holding their stuff, I’m holding my stuff, I need somewhere to put that. So that’s another reason why going to therapy and supervision is really, really important. And I also think that reading is really, really important. When you read other case scenarios and examples and people who are talking about doing this work in this way, you’re gonna build your insight, and that’s what it’s about. That’s what I think it’s about that least if you are working in this way. You know, these are the things you don’t need to do if you’re doing CBT or working, you know, with dialectical behavioral therapy and other ways and you know, if that works for you, then that’s fantastic. And if it’s an evidence based practice that shows to be successful, then why not? This is a specific way of working.
Curt Widhalm 39:26
Where can people find out more about you and your work and your podcast?
Dr. Amy Meyers 39:31
Oh, well, thank you. So I have a website. It’s AmyMyersphd.org. I have information about myself. I have a blog and my podcast is also can be found there but my podcast ‘What Would Dr. Meyers do?’ is available on most streaming sources. And what we do is we I speak with other therapists beginners and seasoned and we talk about different aspects of the work and we talk about their countertransference and I think that even though it is situated to help people become more aware and more reflective in their work, the topics that we cover are really applicable to anybody as we move through, you know this life and try and grapple with our own reality. And I think that it, I think, and I hope that it provides a pathway towards greater self discovery and insight.
Curt Widhalm 40:24
Thank you so much for joining us and sharing in our disbelief in the way that countertransference differs from one place to another. But we will share links to your stuff in our show notes. You can find those over at mtsgpodcast.com. And follow us on our social media, join our Facebook group, the Modern Therapist Group to continue on this discussion. And until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Dr. Amy Myers.
… 40:54
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