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Surviving Family Gatherings Without Becoming the Family Therapist: Emotional Boundaries for the Holidays

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Surviving Family Gatherings Without Becoming the Family Therapist: Emotional Boundaries for the Holidays

In this podcast episode: Navigating emotional boundaries and family dynamics as a therapist during the holidays

Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how therapists can prepare for – and survive – family gatherings without falling back into old roles or turning into the “family therapist.” They explore emotional and relational boundaries, the tendency toward “sacrificial helping,” and what it looks like to authentically show up as a human being during holiday stress.

They share stories and strategies for identifying when you’re taking on others’ emotions, setting boundaries around family conversations, and deciding when to step in versus when to step back. Whether you’re managing guilt, political provocateurs, or nostalgic relatives who still treat you like “little Katie,” this episode offers grounded and compassionate tools for maintaining your sanity through the season.

Transcript

Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.

(Show notes provided in collaboration with Otter.ai and ChatGPT.)

Key Takeaways for Therapists: Setting Emotional Boundaries and Staying Authentic During the Holidays

“I feel very guilty if I can’t use my skills to make my family members feel better. But I’ve learned that it’s okay to just be responsible for myself…not for everyone else’s feelings.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT

Therapists often revert to old, parentified family roles (mediator, helper, or emotional caretaker) during family gatherings.
Emotional boundaries are just as important as physical ones: it’s not only about when you arrive or leave, but how much emotional labor you choose to do.
Avoid falling into “therapist mode” with family members; it’s okay to be messy, authentic, and human.
Recognize when family interactions trigger guilt, over-responsibility, or codependent patterns… and practice saying, “That’s not mine to fix.”
Prepare responses for boundary-challenging situations: overly personal questions, guilt trips, or nostalgic minimization of your adulthood.
“JADE” doesn’t go to Thanksgiving: don’t Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain yourself when setting limits.
Emotional regulation is not the same as emotional suppression; it’s okay to express discomfort and hold your own limits.
Clarify your roles: sometimes you’re the cousin or auntie, not the clinician. Ask yourself: am I responding as a therapist or as family?
Healthy boundaries mean allowing your loved ones to manage their own emotions – even when it’s hard to watch.

“Being able to have emotions is a human right that even us as therapists are allowed to have. It’s about disengaging in a healthy way for you.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT

Resources on Navigating Family Boundaries and Emotional Health During the Holidays

We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!

The Off-Duty Therapist (Episode Link) – MTSG episode on managing boundaries outside of session
Katie Vernoy – www.katievernoy.com
Curt Widhalm – www.curtwidhalm.com

Relevant Episodes of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide

Meet the Hosts: Curt Widhalm & Katie Vernoy

Curt Widhalm, LMFT

Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com

Katie Vernoy, LMFT

Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com

A Quick Note:

Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.

Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.

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Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):

Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements)

… 0:00
(Opening Advertisement)

Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.

Curt Widhalm 0:12
Welcome back, modern therapists. This is modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. This is the podcast for therapists about the things going in our lives, the ways that we show up in and outside of our profession, and we are stepping into holiday season, we’re going to talk about this as Thanksgiving, that’s the week that this episode is released, but we’re in general, just talking more about therapists responding to family and navigating family, sorts of stuff. And some of this may even be stuff that you end up talking with your clients about them being able to do with their families. Because as everyone comes around the Thanksgiving table, you look around at all of your family members, the ones that you’ve grown up loving. And the most important question of all that needs to come up at this time is, who did you vote for?

Katie Vernoy 1:06
I think if you don’t know the then you already know that there’s probably some differences at that table.

Curt Widhalm 1:19
So family time is when all kinds of family stuff comes out. And this is kind of an episode around setting boundaries. But we wanted to talk about this in more depth than just physical boundaries, such as limiting the amount of time that you’re going to spend there. All right? Dinners at 4:30 we’re going to show up at 3:45 on the dot. We’re going to park the very back of the driveway so nobody can block our car in and we are going to be out the door at 6:15 on the dot. I don’t know that from experience whatsoever. I’ve been told that but…

Katie Vernoy 1:55
It didn’t seem oddly specific at all.

Curt Widhalm 1:57
Did not seem oddly specific. But we’re not talking just about physical boundaries, such as, how do you plan your escape routes, we’re talking more about the emotional boundaries, the relationship boundaries that can come up as being a therapist and coming back to the site where it all started for you, and all of your hang ups and issues get put right back in front of you, so being able to navigate the holidays with your family. So Katie, I know that you come from a long and loving family that has had no issues whatsoever ever.

Katie Vernoy 2:39
Like all therapists.

Curt Widhalm 2:40
Like all therapists, we only speak from an academic knowledge, and we are really talking more about Katie as you’re thinking about what issues that you know therapists run into, what are some of the things that pop to mind, as far as, oh, maybe this is where we should start.

Katie Vernoy 3:03
It’s interesting, the physical boundaries that you described. I was thinking that’s not anything that’s in my arsenal at all. I don’t have that. I maybe have started to build some of that when I don’t have any bandwidth, I might have to say no to certain events, that kind of stuff. But for me, the stronger challenge is the emotional boundaries; the desire, the decision to have healthy relationships with my family members, and I think by and large, that’s been successful, and I recognize that there are patterns within my family of origin that re emerge when things are challenged or or more stressed out for all different life reasons. And so when I hear therapists talking about it, in my own experience, it goes more towards that. You know, I described it as sacrificial helping. I’m sure that there’s other folks that can hear codependency or other things that can happen where many therapists were often parentified, their role was helping the family to stay smooth and easy. I know I’ve been a mediator and different, not professionally, but certainly with lots of lived experience. And so the challenge I face, and I think the challenge that I’ve heard a lot of therapists talk about, is this idea of, how do I not therapize my loved ones? How do I not get into that role of managing the emotions of everyone in the room? And so for me, I think it’s, it’s being able to stay in that space, not park my car at the very end, have a 3:45 to 6:15, hard timeline, and be fully myself and be a daughter, a sister, an auntie, you know, those types of things that are. Role that I want to play. I think it’s a role that my family wants me to play. But sometimes the therapist and the parentified child come forward and try to take care of everyone. And so…

Curt Widhalm 5:12
I’m just, I’m just hearing you say this as, Oh, of course, you’re going to be the one who steps outside of all of the family drama. Of course, Katie, you’re the one who just disappears when everybody needs you and your skill set most.

Katie Vernoy 5:24
Yes, yeah. I did not hear that guilt trip at all. But I think that’s the thing, is I feel very guilty if I can’t use my skills to make my family members feel better. And one thing I’m working on in therapy is is that I don’t like that people, I feel pain when other people feel pain, and yes, I hear the codependence of that. But for me, I think the biggest thing that I’ve been working on since I became a therapist was, how can I just be responsible for myself and not for all of my family members and how they feel and how successful they are and how they navigate the world, and part of that is setting these emotional boundaries of what I engage with, what I don’t engage with, how I avoid getting triangulated, how I avoid mediating and nurture my own self care and the relationships I want with folks and not worry about the other ones. And so maybe this is too much of a tell all, but that is what I see with a lot of therapists, is that they end up being in that role of caregiver, of of mediator, and they sometimes have a difficult time getting out because now we have all these skills. We know coping skills, we have great communication skills. We have the ability to assess and diagnose many of us, and I think it can be hard not to let those skills kind of maneuver into the space and impact how we interact and what’s what’s asked of us. I’ve definitely had some family members, you know, not my immediate family, but I’ve had some family members who want me to solve their problems or or who are asking me for expertise that’s within their with, that’s in the realm, and I have to make sure I understand what my boundaries are. And so it’s it’s not easy being a therapist, with most of us having that parentified background and not falling into being the family’s therapist.

Curt Widhalm 7:26
Now, I think all good action plans as much as possible are being able to look ahead at where the potential issues may arise, and I’m choosing issues rather than problems, because this is also a practice of acceptance of people who are around you, and it’s recognizing the kinds of boundary archetypes that might show up. That you know, we can talk in terms of family systems, about rigid families or porous families, but there are the specific ones that might end up showing up. I even started the episode portraying, you know, the political provocateur who’s just going to narrowly define some sort of argument and do their best impersonation of being able to win the argument in some sound clip, sort of arguments that hopefully you can plan ahead on how you’re going to not necessarily engage and be able to graciously step aside while the other person in this hypothetical argument claims some sort of moral victory.

Katie Vernoy 8:36
Well, and I think there’s, there’s an argument there too, that if part of what is my makeup is also political provocateur, maybe that’s fun. But it doesn’t mean that I have to be the therapist trying to get to use all my communication skills. I can be messy, too, if I want to. I think, I think we can say what is more successful, and maybe that’s what you’re saying, but I also want to say, what isn’t being a therapist? Because sometimes being a therapist is: okay, I hear you and let me understand, and this is what you’re describing. And Okay, everyone, let’s provide space for this opinion and those types of things. And some of it’s like, no, you’re full of BS and just showing up authentically. So I think that may create more of an argument, which doesn’t necessarily doesn’t necessarily create a happy Thanksgiving table, but I also don’t think that it’s our responsibility as therapists to make a happy Thanksgiving table.

Curt Widhalm 9:31
And I think that depending on who you are, if you’re passing this along to your client, that there’s an emphasis here that you’re trying to say, of being able to say, All right, I’ll engage. But ultimately it’s being prepared to have a hard stop and being able to say, You know what, I’m not going down this road any further.

Katie Vernoy 9:52
Yeah.

Curt Widhalm 9:52
And being able to kind of have the wherewithal to, you know, withstand the well if anyone but half a brain, you know, could respond to this, and you’re choosing not to. I mean, then this brings kind of into the next kind of boundary type that I think can happen, which is really just kind of questioning you as a professional, if you’re there, which is, you can’t even stand up to this. How do you stand up to helping people at all?!

Katie Vernoy 10:21
Yeah, or you’re getting mad. You’re a therapist, you should be able to manage your emotions.

Curt Widhalm 10:27
Right. And being able to have emotions is a human right that even us as therapists are allowed to have. But it’s being able to disengage in a healthy way for you.

Katie Vernoy 10:48
Yeah.

Curt Widhalm 10:48
And I think that that’s really the parts of recognizing where your place in control is, that it’s more about being able to stay within yourself. And so if you’re like Katie and you say, You know what? I’m an expert at debating, and I know how to negotiate into and out of these kinds of things. So it’s worthwhile for me to humor uncle so and so about things that I fundamentally disagree with him on. Go ahead and you can call Katie at katievernoy.com and all of her wonderful practice things. But if that even feels unsafe for you to go down that pathway, you can prepare yourself for All right, I’m not going to engage this year. I’m not going to do it at all. I’m going to just say, Hey, I know that this conversation isn’t going to go anywhere productive. Count me out.

Katie Vernoy 11:43
Yeah, I think that’s just being healthy. I think the other piece that I want to continue to infuse is, if it’s not okay, you don’t have to have that professional facade of I will, I will accept you as you are, or I’m going to not engage. Like you can just say, ow. That’s not okay. That hurts when you say that. I think that we don’t need to mask in order to be healthy in this. In fact, it may be unhealthy to try to always take the high road. Ao there is a balance. And certainly you might blow things up if you don’t step away. So you have to make that decision. I think for me, it’s distinguishing you making that decision as a human, an authentic human, versus you trying to continue to hang on to that role of therapist.

… 12:38
(Advertisement Break)

Curt Widhalm 12:40
So the next kind of boundary type that I know makes for good TV movies or bad TV movies, depending on what you want, is the overly personal interrogator. Oh, when are you gonna have kids? Why are you still working in the agency rather than starting out in your private practice? Are you dating anyone serious yet? You’re gonna be alone forever? You know the kind…

Katie Vernoy 13:07
All the wonderful questions that family members think they have the right to ask.

Curt Widhalm 13:12
And this might be part of the overly porous kind of boundaries that overly enmeshed families can have. But at least to me, these questions always feel like it’s setting up for some kind of judgment, no matter what the answer is.

Katie Vernoy 13:28
Sure.

Curt Widhalm 13:30
How do you handle those?

Katie Vernoy 13:32
I set boundaries. I think this is less about being a therapist and more about just wanting to maintain my own kind of distance. You know, like, this is how close you are, versus this is how close somebody else is. And so I might say, I might answer seriously. I might answer humorously. I might answer with, you know, I don’t really talk about that. Or, you know, this is a party, let’s, let’s focus on other things, whatever it is. I think there’s ways to deflect. There’s ways to just set a boundary. You know, there’s been times I’ve, I’ve said things pretty dramatically, because that’s who I am, and cut off the conversation in very awkward ways. It works, but I don’t know if I feel good about it. So I think there’s, there’s a many different ways to do it. I think it’s just feeling empowered to do it that is the biggest, most challenging part for for most people in the world, I guess not most, but many people, we avoid conflict. We can comply when we think it’s going to be easier, versus saying, Ooh, that’s really personal. How about you?

Curt Widhalm 14:42
Yeah. How’s that surgery coming out? Does everybody? I mean, for some people, you can feel very tempted to just kind of reciprocate back with something just as personal. But we can all imagine that that is the healthiest way possible to go into a family situation is just score keep and score keep and try to come out as the winner.

Katie Vernoy 15:08
Yes.

Curt Widhalm 15:09
Or less sarcastically, I am more of a fan of just acknowledge and immediately change the topic. Oh yeah, that’s a discussion for another time. We’re here to do Thanksgiving, to eat, to be merry around family, and not being afraid to be a broken record about that this is part of the consistency of having some boundaries.

Katie Vernoy 15:37
Well, and I think understanding where your boundaries are when it comes to professional opinions, professional work, as you know what role of a therapist you hold, because I oftentimes don’t get those questions anymore. I think my family members, I’ve set enough boundaries that they don’t ask questions that I don’t want to share the answer to. But oftentimes they’ll ask questions around, well, what do you think about my kid, or what do you think about this, and what do you think about that? And by and large, that’s very appropriate at this point. I’m not getting those questions of, can you fix this, or can you intervene? And I have had that in the past. But part of the reason that it’s fine now is that I proactively had conversations about what I could and could not do, and even in specifically shifting dynamics, I can’t, I can’t be the go between with you and this other person, that’s I’m learning in school. This is how long ago it was. I’m learning in school that this is why this is unhealthy. And I want to support you. I want to support the other person, but if I’m getting in the middle, that’s going to be problematic. Or I can take a look at this thing that you got from some professional, and I can let you know what it says. I can help you translate it, but I obviously cannot be your therapist. I can’t, you know, I can’t provide therapeutic advice, but I can help you find a direction of where to go. Is that okay? Is that what you’re asking for? And so for me, it’s proactively setting: Here are my boundaries. Here are the things I can and cannot do based on my own comfort level as well as what my profession asks of me, and then I continue to reinforce those.

Curt Widhalm 17:26
What I like about this is something that I came across in preparing for this episode that I had never really seen it put this way is JADE doesn’t go at Thanksgiving. And…

Katie Vernoy 17:39
I don’t know what you mean by that. What are you talking about?

Curt Widhalm 17:42
So don’t don’t engage in JADE. Don’t Justify, don’t Argue, don’t Defend, don’t Explain. Don’t feel compelled to just get drug down into the normal processes that end up happening. And this works particularly well with the guilt tripping type things that tend to show up that after everything I’ve done for you, you know, that’s not necessarily, you know, right after the turkey is carved, that’s, you know, after desserts, after several bottles of wine have been opened, or two days later, if you’re spending extended periods of time where it’s not just, you know, getting through a couple of hours, but it’s getting through a couple of days, where you get to be, you get to have your own self determination. You get to have your own pathway through life, and you don’t need to internalize other people’s ideas about what you have to do with your life. And this can also show up when somebody has passed away, that there’s kind of family legacies that end up getting brought in. This might sound like, “well, your grandmother would just absolutely roll over in her grave if she knows that this was happening.” That is that going to be a productive conversation? Probably not. And you can get pulled right back into your own family of origin issues if you try to overly intellectualize and overly pacify everybody else’s concerns, you’re just gonna end up getting ground down yourself.

Katie Vernoy 19:18
Yeah.

Curt Widhalm 19:19
So JADE doesn’t go at Thanksgiving.

Katie Vernoy 19:21
Okay, okay, it’s interesting, because I think there’s so many different ways that we can find ourselves at odds with family members or pulled into something uncomfortable with family members, both because of whatever our family of origin roles were, and those things. It can be also our differential capacity to manage our own emotions, to communicate, that makes it difficult sometimes. I don’t know if this is the same for you, but it becomes difficult sometimes to see how folks could continue to do the things that they used to do. You know, if “for everything I’ve done for you” or “your grandmother would roll over in her grave” like those things, frankly, feel a bit ridiculous to me because of how ineffective they are and kind of the emotional blackmail that they provide. And so knowing that I don’t say those things, or at least I don’t typically say those things. I don’t think I’ve said those things or things like that. And so when we’re engaging with somebody who has less emotional resources or emotional intelligence or even capacity to cope, it can be this unbalanced interaction where it becomes our responsibility, because we’re still regulated, we aren’t engaging, mostly. I guess there are going to be times when we do engage, but you know, if we’re not engaging, all of a sudden, it’s our responsibility to regulate this other person, or it could be if we chose it, to regulate this other person, because they’ve gotten to the place of whatever criticism or whatever guilt trip that that is there. And I feel like knowing that internal boundary of, when do I step forward and worked to help somebody regulate, and when do I step away and say, You’re on your own? I think it’s one of those things that it depends, it depends, it depends on the person, it depends on the level of crisis. I know we we had a similar conversation like six years ago in 2019 maybe, maybe it was 2018 so maybe even longer than that, with off duty therapists. I’ll link that in the show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com, but when we have someone in our family who’s truly in crisis, we may step forward and do more than we would do under normal circumstances, so I just want to put that caveat in there. But when a family member is dysregulated and saying, spewing things that are harmful or hurtful, I think we do have a choice. Do I step in and help regulate the situation? Or do I step away and set a boundary for myself? And I think either choice can be healthy, but it’s one that therapists have to decide, as family members what they’re going to do with.

… 22:15
(Advertisement Break)

Curt Widhalm 22:17
I think that there’s another one of these that can kind of show up. And this is kind of trying to maintain the family systems that have happened before. And I don’t know my term for this is kind of the nostalgia traveler, the one who, Oh, little Katie, you know, despite you being well into your adulthood, one that’s always got to kind of minimize or bring up old, embarrassing stories that have no relevance to where you’re at anymore, but it’s kind of usually older relatives refusal to acknowledge your adulthood, your professionality, your Hey, what’s that podcast thing for you ever going to take off? Why don’t you go and get a job like Becky from down the street? Kind of dismissing sorts of things. There is a lot of these that are just kind of trying to re establish old family system sorts of aspects, and whether it be the nostalgia, whether it be the guilt tripping that is to bring things back to the level of predictable discomfort that things have always been and that we in our professional roles, know doesn’t exist anymore, and now I’m basically just describing family systems work, but managing these ones pretty effectively can be, hey, I appreciate the memories. But anyway, in the work that I’m doing is it’s that acknowledge and shift back to directing the conversation to something that reflects reality now, rather than being the one that everyone gets to poke fun at because something embarrassing happened to you in middle school that they’re continuing to not let you live down.

Katie Vernoy 24:19
It sounds like we have very different family gatherings, and maybe we have some of those things too, but I don’t, part of it is, I think I have less of an older generation left, and so I’m one of the oldest in the family members that are present. So I don’t have little Katie memories, but, but I do think that that’s true. I think that the that we have to find our own way to protect ourself from revisiting or being sucked back into old patterns or into the role we used to play. I think there’s, there’s so many, I was gonna say booby traps. There’s so many different ways that we can fall into that, and I I want to normalize that we may just fall in and have to realize it and find our way back out. And if we can be resourced enough, we can go in feeling positive and prepared, we may be able to do some of the things that you’re talking about, acknowledge and shift, redirect the conversation, some of the stuff I’m talking about, setting specific boundaries, enforcing those boundaries. And I think those things can be challenging, but I think they can also be easier for us as therapists, truthfully, because it’s what we’re it’s where we live, it’s what we do on a day to day basis. I think the final thing I want to talk about is when our skills can be helpful. I mentioned before that, you know, sometimes people say like, oh, the teacher mentioned this, or, Oh, the the, you know, the school psychologist gave me this report. Can you take a look at it and being able to say this is what I can do and not do. And I think that’s just understanding professional limitations, personal limitations you want to make, and holding those true. I think there’s this other element of being a therapist that comes in where I find this is the most dynamic constant, assessment and reassessment that I have to do, which is: I have all these skills. I have this insight. I have a lot of knowledge about the way our brain works, the way our emotions work, the way relationships work. And I’m not supposed to share that with my family members? I’m not supposed to help them with their lives? And I think for me, it’s determining where is the line. I can share coping skills. I can help someone self regulate when they’re having an emotional experience. I can talk them through and help them process something. There’s things that we do as humans with our loved ones, and then there’s also the things that we have extra skills for, because we’re therapists. And so when we were talking ahead of time, I came to kind of a conclusion of where I think I’m where I draw the line. But where do you draw the line if there are skills that you have that might help your relationships or help the people you love?

Curt Widhalm 27:18
The thing that immediately pops to mind is this isn’t quite a not my monkeys, not my circus situation, because they definitely are my monkeys, but

Katie Vernoy 27:26
And it is your circus.

Curt Widhalm 27:30
Well, not necessarily, because in my professional role, my circus is the clients that I’m working with, that…

Katie Vernoy 27:36
Sure, but in your life, your circus is your family or your loved ones.

Curt Widhalm 27:42
You know, a lot of times where the line is is really being in and being able to call it out. Are you asking me as your son, your husband, your father, your cousin? Are you asking me as the therapist? And really being able to clarify that those might even be conflicting roles. And somebody would say, Well, what’s, what’s the difference in those answers? And I would say, Well, as you know, dear cousin, your nephew, whatever, in this situation, what I would say is, man, this family fight sure sucks. And as the therapist, I would say is, and here’s where your role in this is. So I’m confident in being able to call it out, and I also live far enough away from my family that I don’t have to engage in this as frequently as other people do.

Katie Vernoy 28:36
Yeah.

Curt Widhalm 28:37
But it really is, if we have those skills, it’s something to be able to recognize, hey, where do I fit in my own part of this process? Because when I’m supervising, particularly early career clinicians, when I was a teacher, when I have clinicians as part of my practice, and so many as my clientele of my practice, there’s so many times for that conversation ends up coming into, yeah, this is stuff that I know, but I just get pulled into it. And this is really activating those skills for yourself, because unlike therapy, you might not necessarily be responsible for many of the family members that are around you, and they’re not necessarily engaging with you in a way that is approached like therapy from a client side. And so they are different skill sets. I’m a fan of calling out, Hey, this is a process where I would approach this entirely different as a therapist. I’m not necessarily going to say, and here’s my rates, and you can pay me before I move on. I know some therapists are happy in doing that, but sometimes it’s just being able to disarm the situation by being able to say, hey, how I would handle this professionally is different than how I would handle this personally.

Katie Vernoy 29:59
Yeah. I like that. I think it’s a little bit more structured than I find myself, because it’s oftentimes my interpersonal relationships. It’s I am living close to my family. I get to see my family quite a bit, or at least parts of it quite a bit. And so it is a not day to day, but certainly at least once a month or every few weeks, I’m spending time with people I deeply care about and want to help. And so determining where that line is for me isn’t saying, Well, this is therapist Katie hat, and this is sister Katie hat, or this is Auntie Katie hat. It’s understanding internally where that line is. And as we were talking before we hit record, I recognized that there were, there were two pieces that were really important. One is, I don’t want the relationship to change, and so I am the oldest sister. I am an auntie. There’s, there’s a lot of things where I do hold a position of advisor, mentor, guide, for some folks that I love deeply, and so that’s not going to change, as long as I don’t, all of a sudden add the role of therapist to it. And I think the way I figured that might be is that it’s still reciprocal. I’m still human, I can still share my life, and I can step forward, and I know we talked in our episode about why we have difficulty being friends, that sometimes we step back and we don’t share because we’re so used to that one sided relationship. And so for me, I’m not 100% great at this, but what I try to do is to be myself and step forward and share my challenges and share my thought process. And sometimes I might say, as a therapist, I might do this, and as a, you know, a human in the world, I might do something else, but I don’t necessarily denote that, and it’s potentially not the same for every person, because some folks need more support, and maybe they need more of the coping strategies I can teach them, right or maybe they need more of the emotional regulation skills so that we can engage and have a positive conversation. But it’s not something where the relationship is moving into that specific relationship that we have as a therapist, it’s staying in that space of reciprocity and care and authenticity and transparency and vulnerability that I get to put into that relationship. I think if I step away from that and I don’t allow my own vulnerability into it, which is both a old pattern of mine as well as something that probably happened when I first became a therapist, as I was practicing those boundaries with everyone. But I think embodying, feeling embodied and being in relationship, and then using skills that I learned at school and in ongoing training and from my clients, I feel like I can, I can do that well. And if, with some folks, if I listen for two minutes, all of a sudden they are acting like I’m their therapist, and I have to set a boundary. But for other folks, I can listen consistently and and then show up and they listen to me and it doesn’t feel like I’m their therapist, even though I might use some empathy skills or some communication skills or teach them coping strategies, like I feel like there’s there’s a difference, and part of it is me assessing the safety of the relationship, as well as my capacity to set boundaries when it steps one step too far.

Curt Widhalm 33:31
We would love to hear your tips, tricks, ideas. You can share them with us on our social media. You can join our Facebook group, the Modern Therapist’s Group to continue on with this and other conversations, and if this is after the holidays, let us know what you did and how effective it was, and you can find our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com and until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.

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Announcer 33:57
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