Photo ID: A closeup on binoculars, the headshot of Dr. Amy Parks to one side with text overlay

The Clinical Supervision Crisis for Early Career Therapists: An Interview with Dr. Amy Parks

Curt and Katie interview Dr. Amy Parks about the lack of resources for pre- and provisionally licensed mental health professionals to find a clinical supervisor. We discuss the current state of clinical supervision, the barriers for folks becoming clinical supervisors, what makes a good supervisor, navigating online supervision, and what licensed folks might consider when seeking consultation.

Transcript

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An Interview with Dr. Amy Parks, Founder of the Clinical Supervision Directory

Picture ID: Headshot of Dr. Amy Parks Dr. Amy Fortney Parks brings with her over 30 years of experience working with children, adolescents and families as both an educator and psychologist.  She is a passionate “BRAIN -ENTHUSIAST” and strives to help everyone she works with understand the brain science of communication, activation and relationships.

Dr. Parks has a Doctorate in Educational Psychology with a specialty in developmental neuroscience. She is a Child & Adolescent Psychologist as well as the founder and Clinical Director of WISE Mind Solutions LLC and The Wise Family Counseling, Assessment & Education in Virginia.  She is also the founder of the Clinical Supervision Directory – a connection super-highway for supervision-seekers working towards licensure in counseling and social work across the US.

Dr. Parks serves as a Clinical Supervisor for Virginia LPC Residents, as well as Dominion Psychiatric Hospital. Additionally, she is an adjunct professor at George Washington University & The Chicago School of Professional Psychology. Dr. Parks is a frequently sought-after parent coach and speaker for families and groups around the world.

In this podcast episode, we talk about clinical supervision for modern therapists

We look at the gap in clinical supervision for prelicensed or provisionally licensed mental health professionals.

What is the state of clinical supervision for mental health professionals?

“Arbitrary reasons or barriers to entry are one of the main reasons why we’re not getting more clinical counselors on the ground to serve the public. Because when somebody graduates from graduate school… hundreds of thousands of clinicians are graduating, and hundreds of thousands of them will not get connected to supervisors, until they figure out where to find their lists.” – Dr. Amy Parks

  • No consistent resources for newly graduated clinicians to find supervisors
  • Different state to state or area to area
  • Lack of supervisors and a lack of a mechanism to connect supervisors and supervisees

What are the barriers to folks becoming clinical supervisors?

  • Different standards in different states
  • Sometimes becoming a supervisor is too overwhelming, complicated, or too much responsibility
  • The need for advanced training in supervision

What makes a good supervisor?

“Everyone should have supervision as part of their employment. It should be excellent. It should be professional, and it should be a benefit, period, end of discussion. But I can guarantee you 100% that that is not the majority of the country. And that’s not the way it’s done in every career field either.” – Dr. Amy Parks

  • Training
  • Diverse experience
  • Understanding the boundaries between supervision and counseling
  • Supervisor, consultant, teacher roles
  • Cultural humility, bias – looking at clients and supervisees

Navigating Online Supervision

  • Video supervision (rather than phone)
  • Have supervisees record (video) their sessions for feedback
  • Research shows that telesupervision is as effective as in person
  • Laws related to in-person versus virtual supervision

Supervision or Consultation After Licensure

  • The value of getting consultation after you’re licensed
  • The importance of a beginner’s mind
  • The challenges of finding good consultation
  • Finding the right match when seeking supervision or consultation

Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide:

Thrizer

Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client’s insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don’t need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!

Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won’t be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code ‘moderntherapists’ for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right – you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.

Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:

We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Clinical Supervision Directory

Clinical Supervision Directory Sign up to be a Supervisor coupon code for $50 off the first year: FRIEND50

NBCC accredited supervisor program

Instagram @ClinicalSupervisionDirectory

Facebook @ClinicalSupervisionDirectory

LinkedIn – Clinical Supervision Directory

Amy’s practice: The Wise Family

Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:

Giving and Getting Good Supervision

Getting the Supervision You Want

Bilingual Supervision: An Interview with Adriana Rodriguez, LMFT

Waiving Goodbye to Telehealth Progress: An Interview with Dr. Ben Caldwell

Who we are:

Picture of Curt Widhalm, LMFT, co-host of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide podcast; a nice young man with a glorious beard.Curt Widhalm, LMFT

Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com

Picture of Katie Vernoy, LMFT, co-host of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide podcastKatie Vernoy, LMFT

Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com

A Quick Note:

Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.

Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.

Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:

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Connect with the Modern Therapist Community:

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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):

Curt Widhalm 0:00
This episode of The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide is brought to you by Thrizer.

Katie Vernoy 0:03
Thrizer is a modern billing platform for private pay therapists. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer you can potentially save them hundreds every month with no extra work on your end. The best part is you don’t have to give up your rates. They charge a standard 3% processing fee.

Curt Widhalm 0:24
Listen at the end of the episode for more information on a special offer from Thrizer.

Announcer 0:29
You’re listening to The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.

Curt Widhalm 0:44
Welcome back modern therapists, this is The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm, with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists where we discuss all things therapist related. And it’s been a while since we’ve really focused on like pre-licensed issues and the supervision process. And we are joined today by Dr. Amy Parks, Owner, founder of the online Clinical Supervision Directory and just kind of all around very cool person. And thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Amy Parks 1:18
Thank you so much. I love being all around cool person. Thanks so much.

Katie Vernoy 1:22
We are super excited to have you here. And you’ve been a friend of the program and Therapy Reimagined. So, so excited to talk about one of your areas of expertise. But I will get to our question that we ask everyone when they when they get here is who are you and what are you putting out into the world?

Dr. Amy Parks 1:40
Yes, absolutely. So I’m Dr. Amy Parks. I’m a group practice owner in Alexandria, Virginia. So way far away from you on the East Coast. I’m also an accredited clinical supervisor here in Virginia and Maryland and DC. I also teach at a university here on the East Coast. And I’m also the owner of The Clinical Supervision Directory. So I’m putting that out in the world. That’s my big thing right now. And it is a connection superhighway for supervision seekers and supervisors. That is touching every state in the country right now, which is really, really exciting. I didn’t think I’d become the supervision lady, but apparently I am. So that was not my intention, but it has become my calling.

Katie Vernoy 2:21
That’s awesome.

Dr. Amy Parks 2:22
Yeah.

Curt Widhalm 2:23
And this really started with kind of some of the idea or noticing that there was a gap in support for recent graduates in getting supervision. And can you tell us a little bit more about what you had noticed in this gap, and why it was so important to address it.

Dr. Amy Parks 2:44
It’s a gap that is is a complicated one. And really, it’s systemic, and it’s state wide, and it’s different in each state. So, you know, when you graduate from graduate school, you each state is required to credential supervisors. But there’s no mandate that they provide a list of those people that they credential. And so when you graduate from graduate school, most graduate schools say bye, bye, and let you on your own, and you are required to go find supervision. And so you ask a friend of a friend of a friend, or maybe you get hired somewhere that might have supervision as part of your employment. But in general, it’s pretty much on your own to get your supervision towards licensure. And sometimes your states might have a list, sometimes they don’t. But the ways that you find supervision in our country are really kind of the same way as you find a good restaurant or you date, you know, you go on an app, or you go on a list. And, you know, those are the ways that are the appropriate ways to find professional guidance towards your career. And especially from state to state, if you go to college in Virginia, and then you move back to Michigan, or you’re going across state lines, it’s very, very complicated. And the rules are different from state to state. This is a problem in every career field in mental health. And so the gap exists and and we’re working to close it.

Katie Vernoy 4:04
So is it a lack of supervisors? Or was it solely this lack of ability to find them?

Dr. Amy Parks 4:10
There is somewhat of a lack of supervisors, and it’s not so much that we don’t want to supervise because there are a lot of fantastic supervisors out there. But there are a lot of people that once they get a few supervisees, they realize they’re pretty maxed out. Because, you know, as supervisors, it is like taking on another client. And so you do get kind of heavy on your load. And it’s, there’s only so many that you can take. So we do need more supervisors in the field. There’s no doubt about that. But the connection is really more necessary. So it’s it is a little bit of a chicken and an egg situation. The connection is just as important as continuing to train well qualified, excellent supervisors and bringing them up and into the field.

Curt Widhalm 4:59
In dealing with this chicken and egg problem, why aren’t people becoming supervisors? What are some of the barriers and obstacles they’re facing to get there?

Dr. Amy Parks 5:09
We know, that’s a really funny question too. Because if you look at our 50 plus one D.C., not a state, but 51 states in the US, if you look at how to become a supervisor, if you look at each state’s guidelines, it’s a landmine of complications, it is so hard to figure out in many on many websites for state boards, how to become a supervisor. And in some states, it’s so easy to joke. Like, you can just walk up to the board’s office and say, Hi, I look really cute. Can I become a supervisor? And they’re like, Sure, no problem, go for it. And then others, you have to take 20 hours of coursework every single year. And so it’s inherently complicated from state to state to state as well. In answering your question, it’s almost as complicated to become licensed as a clinical counselor as it is to become a supervisor. So some people are just like, why am I bothering? I’ve got enough on my plate as a counselor? Why do I want to become a supervisor? So there are a lot of people in academia, for example, that are teaching that are not supervisors, because it’s just too much trouble. And there’s a lot of liability as well. When have you been bring on a supervisee, you are taking on their responsibilities, you are taking on the liability for their cases. You have a lot inherent in in that responsibility. So there’s a lot of that too, of responsibility. So there’s just a lot of things to think about when you become a supervisor. And it takes an enormous amount of training and consideration to become a supervisor.

Curt Widhalm 6:44
So once we actually get to the supervision process, what is good supervision look like? Because I think a lot of our listeners know, probably all three of us have been in supervisions, where sometimes supervisors are just warm bodies in a room that are signing off on hours, from your perspective, and through all of this process, what are you seeing actually makes good effective supervision?

Dr. Amy Parks 7:08
I’m really glad you’re asking that question. Because I really strongly believe in advanced training in supervision. There are a lot of people that are supervising who are really, really skilled. And there are plenty of people that are supervising that probably aren’t ready to be supervisors yet. But that maybe went for that credential for a variety of other reasons that maybe weren’t quite the reasons that made sense in terms of being able to support the next generation of supervisee. The accredited clinical supervisor credential through NBCC, I think is a very valuable one, I mean, requires 40 hours of additional supervision training. And I think it is a very valuable credential. There are additional training opportunities. But what makes a good supervisor and what a good supervisor looks like, is one that has experience in the field, in a variety of domains, and a variety of areas. And if they don’t have experience in a variety of areas, they have the network to be able to find experience to be able to send their supervisor to places that give them support. So they are able to provide the support their supervisee is looking for when they know they have a weakness. I think that that’s really important. They are skilled enough to be able to know that they are not a counselor for their supervisee. But they know the boundaries when they need to give a referral to their supervisee. Because their supervisee may need some counseling, they know the boundaries in which they are required to be a teacher to their supervisee. And they know the boundaries in which they’re required to be a consultant. So a good supervisor takes on those three roles every time they’re in the room with their supervisee. And they know when to toggle between those three roles as appropriate. Those are very, very important things. And also they have a very strong sense of their own cultural humility, when they’re working with their supervisee because it’s just as important when you’re working in clinic, doing clinical work with your counseling clients, to be aware of your biases when you are working with your supervisees as you are with your clients, because you may be encountering your own countertransference or transference with your supervisee as you would with your clients. So I think all of those things are really important and even more important because you’re not only doing the work but you’re mentoring the work.

Katie Vernoy 9:44
I think there’s a new additional skill set that I think supervisors have had to navigate which is virtual supervision and and also training to virtual therapy and, and I know at least in California, we’ve had some battles on can online supervision still continue? And all that stuff.

Dr. Amy Parks 10:05
Yes, yes.

Katie Vernoy 10:06
And so I guess the question that I have here is, is virtual supervision as effective as in person? And what are the considerations around supervising someone that you may never have met in person?

Dr. Amy Parks 10:20
You know, we’ve been monitoring your battles. I don’t know where you guys stand on that. But we’ve been monitoring those battles. I frankly, think it’s sort of ridiculous that anyone considers virtual supervision any different from in person supervision. But I understand that people have different perspectives on virtual versus in person I certainly love in person in Virginia, and many states throughout the country, you can do all of your supervision virtually, however, by phone or telephonic is very different from virtual meeting with video. So I would, and most states don’t allow telephonic. So I think video supervision. I think, personally and the research supports, there is some research around this supports that video supervision is equally as effective in terms of long terms, subjective outcome measures, subjective, not objective, there’s not a whole lot of objective measure, but subjective outcome results from both the supervisee and supervisor like asking questions, how did you feel about the experience, did you feel it was productive, etc, I think it’s perfectly fine and great. Having never met the person, I would say something that’s incredibly important, regardless of whether you’re in person or virtual and, and a lot of people bristle at this, but you must include video supervision in your supervision, meaning you must require that your supervisee provide and do some video, get video feedback from some of their sessions, meaning they take some video of some of their sessions with clients. And you do some video feedback supervision in your supervision. So even if you’ve never met them, you have an opportunity to see them working. And so I don’t think you need to meet a person in person, you can still meet them by video, still get a sense of their energy, still see them working in person, you can talk to the people that they’re working with, you can interface with their colleagues, you can really still get a perfectly great sense of them in the field, and have never met them, in my opinion, and again, the subjective research is showing that it’s just as effective. I would love to hear your insights and what you guys are hearing in California, because that’s what I’m seeing in the research being in the field and what I’m hearing from my own colleagues, I think it’s just as effective. But it’s an interesting controversy right now, in both the clinical domain and in the supervision domain.

Curt Widhalm 12:46
Back around 2016-2017. California was revamping for MFTs, LCSWs and LPCs the supervision requirements. And this discussion had come up in a number of subcommittees about, you know, how much requiring of people in person and whether we should just flat out allow video supervision and I stood up in front of the committee and said, you know, is this an opportunity where we need to carve out being able to have online video supervision readily available? It’s 2017, this is 21st century, things happen? We might be preparing for a worldwide pandemic, and I got kind of laughed out of the room at the moment like oh, no, that’s never gonna happen.

Katie Vernoy 13:37
He probably is kidding.

Curt Widhalm 13:38
No. This actually did happen.

Katie Vernoy 13:42
Did you actually say worldwide pandemic?

Curt Widhalm 13:44
I did.

Dr. Amy Parks 13:45
Oh, my God, are you? What is it? Notredomis, Nostradamus or whoever that guy?

Curt Widhalm 13:51
So fast forwards. We’re five years later, we’ve been operating for a couple of years on emergency sort of waivers to be. And we do have bills that are being fast tracked through the California legislature to make this permanent. But there had been a survey of stakeholders here over the last year leading up to this legislation where there was still a ton of concern around are these people with master’s degrees trustworthy to actually be able to do therapy. And a number of, in my opinion, really ridiculous suggestions were made of like, people would have to come in to in person supervision at least once a month. And there was a lot of discussions around. Those are arbitrary sort of things that get in the way of actually being able to deliver mental health services where they need to be done. Fortunately, I think that things have finally settled to being in a space where all right, we’ve done a couple of years of online supervision. There’s been some hiccups, we’re dealing with them. You know, there are some disciplinary cases where rules exist in places, those things are getting dealt with, with rules that already exist. So it does seem to be that we’re moving forward in a good direction here.

Dr. Amy Parks 15:14
You know, arbitrary reasons or barriers to entry are one of the main reasons why we’re not getting more Clinical Counselors on the ground to serve the public. Because when somebody graduates from graduate school, this is graduation season that we’re that we’re recording this, it’s May right now. And hundreds of 1000s of in the 660k, prep accredited universities across the US, hundreds of 1000s of clinicians are graduating, and hundreds of 1000s of them will not get connected to supervisors, until they figure out where to find their lists. And it’s going to be months and months unless they find this directory, which hopefully they will, and we’re working really hard to help them find it, and hope they will find supervisors, because the lists are buried in these ridiculous websites. And then the lists are just: they list Katie Vernoy, and her email address. And then we pray to God that Katie Vernoy is still alive and still uses that email address. In Virginia, it just list the name and the email address, not even her zip code, or where she lives in the state. And thank God, maybe she’s still living, but she might be dead because they don’t keep up the lists. It’s just so outrageous, then it’s inherent on the graduate to call all reply to you know, email all those people, I don’t even know what county they’re in much less the zip code. It’s just so ridiculous. And it’s arbitrary barriers to entry that are keeping, I was just listening to the radio, and they were talking about the number there were three suicides on the George Washington Naval ship in May in April. And they were just talking about, there were so few mental health clinicians in the Navy, in the Navy, we’re talking about the Navy, not just the US the barriers to entry for mental health clinicians, were just piling them up. So it’s inherent for us as disruptors in this industry, professional troublemakers to break those barriers down. And I am sad that I have to mortgage my house to do it, and that our associations aren’t doing it. But I don’t see any other this is you have to go to the meetings and have to stay this is what what we have to do.

Katie Vernoy 17:27
The thing that that I am still trying to kind of get my head around is I got supervision when I was employed, you know, I worked in a lot of different organizations, I was able to get supervision. And I I’m also looking from, you know, I do some recruiting strategy and helped some folks with recruiting in the past. And there’s a lot of folks that can’t find therapists to hire, and, and provide supervision. And I think there’s different things about kind of what people are paying. And that’s a whole other conversation. But to me, it seems like there are plenty of opportunities to get supervision through your employment. And so to me, I’m, I’m curious about your thoughts, because I think, you know, there’s folks who, like I do supervision, come over here and pay me whatever, and I will give you supervision. And then in California, like they have to be an employee and they get paid for it. But I think that there’s there’s a different mindset that you’re describing here with like having to go out and find a supervisor versus going out and finding a job. And I I’m just trying to understand that because because I just had a very different path.

Dr. Amy Parks 18:32
Right? Well, it’s not the same in every state. So it’s yeah, it’s definitely not the same in every state. And it’s not, it’s definitely not the same in every field. So in count in the counseling field, it’s very different. And there are also a lot of times where you’re the person that you are working, the place where you are working, they may provide perfectly adequate and very maybe excellent supervision. And then the place where you’re employed may provide what you find to be abhorrent supervision.

Katie Vernoy 19:07
Sure.

Dr. Amy Parks 19:07
So for example, when we were at the ACA’s convention for ACA, the the association of counseling educators and supervisors in Atlanta, we had a supervisee approach us who was employed at an agency, and they were supervised at the agency, and they had to continue in that supervision with that supervisor at their agency because that was their job. But that supervisor consistently week after week after week, misgendered them, consistently week after week after week, that was their employment, and they could not quit that employment because that was how they fed themselves.

Katie Vernoy 19:07
Sure.

Dr. Amy Parks 19:07
So they sought other supervision because it was so uncomfortable for them and so difficult for them to continue. They couldn’t quit their job because that was their means of survival. However, they were not feeling like they were getting appropriate or adequate supervision because they were so uncomfortable in their supervision at work. So that’s just one example. And it’s, you know, obviously unique, but there are a lot of times where your work place, your employment supervision, maybe your the supervision that you’re getting at work, there isn’t a supervisor that speaks the language, your primary language. And so the supervisory supervision that you’re getting maybe is not adequate. Or there are some places where you are employed, where they’re, they’re supposed to be providing you supervision, but there isn’t a supervisor there. So for example, I provide supervision at a psychiatric hospital here in Virginia, if I were to leave there, there is no one there on site to provide supervision. So it could be six months, a year, two years before they hired someone else, because it was three years before they hired me. So they were three years without a supervisor, and they just sort of winged it, I won’t name them since I’m sort of throwing them under the bus right now. But you know, they it took them quite a while to get me. And if I left they wouldn’t have anyone. So then they just have an empty slot. So they’re all their people they’re supposed to be getting supervision as part of their employment are just not getting the benefit. So I hear what you’re saying. And there are plenty of opportunities in time or times where people are missing the boat and need to find supervision even when they should be getting it. Maybe that didn’t answer your question exactly?

Katie Vernoy 20:40
I think it answers part of it. I think there’s two elements to this; one is the workforce issue and putting a bandaid on it, because I think employment should have supervision.

Dr. Amy Parks 21:42
Yes.

Katie Vernoy 21:42
And it should be included as a benefit. But I guess that’s that’s one piece and that’s my perspective on it is that if you were a pre or provisionally licensed clinician, you need to have supervision included as part of your employment and you should be paid as an employee. Now, I’m very California with that. I know that there are folks that come in as 1099, and do all that stuff as per your provisional license. And and I think there’s there’s problems with that. And that’s a whole other conversation.

Dr. Amy Parks 22:09
Yes

Katie Vernoy 22:09
But I think there’s this element of as a pre-licensed or provisionally licensed clinician having to go pay for supervision to get adequate supervision. I mean, I guess there’s the like, what quality are you getting? You know, what’s, you know, kind of, are you getting what you pay for so to speak? But is there an element of that, that changes the quality of the nature or quality of the supervision. So that part I don’t think we’ve talked about yet. But I just for me, this is, this is something where I just never had to do this, I don’t think anyone should have to do it. And I worry if we put a bandaid on it, that it doesn’t get fixed at a larger scale. Granted, Curt and I’ve talked about we need to like help people navigate what’s real, and then advocate for the other part. So you know, we need to have supervisors available. However we get there. I just I get worried that when if we have if our band aids are too good, society doesn’t have to fix stuff.

Dr. Amy Parks 23:04
I absolutely hear you. And I am really thrilled that we’re having this conversation, because I do think that is the next step of the conversation. That’s the next part of the conversation. I do know, I do hear your California perspective, because I do think it’s important. Well, I think it’s important to point it out. And I don’t think that it’s bad, it’s very good, because it’s very progressive. And your the way you’re doing things is way it should be done. Because everyone should have supervision as part of their employment, it should be excellent, it should be professional, and it should be a bit of benefit, period, end of discussion. But I can guarantee you 100% That that is not the majority of the country. And that’s not the way it’s done in every career field either.

Katie Vernoy 23:43
Well, and excellent isn’t necessarily the supervision that people are getting in California, if it gets it, it’s a whole spectrum of of supervision here too. But…

Dr. Amy Parks 23:50
That’s easier. Excellent is easier to fix. Excellence, frankly, way easier to fix than systemically, everyone. Well, I mean, okay, well, maybe not. But training is training.

Katie Vernoy 24:01
Training is training, but a lot of a lot of the systems don’t allow time for training. So supervisors have the same issues as…

Dr. Amy Parks 24:07
but I mean, but even like LMFTs and counselors and social workers don’t all talk to each other. So like, that’s a whole other thing. But but, you know, my goal right now is the connecting, because I get it. And yes, I hear what you’re saying. Like if we could get people connected, then we can work on the next step of things, which is getting more people trained without them having to pay for it, because I agree with you. I don’t I don’t want people to have to pay for it. I think people should be getting this part of their employment. And I encourage that strongly. And are people getting better supervision if they pay for it? I don’t think so. I think that shouldn’t be the way. I don’t think that should be the way it should be. I don’t think that’s the argument but very interesting part of the discussion, and I do think it’s something to continue to keep open to as we move forward. Very, very thoughtful. I really appreciate that perspective.

Curt Widhalm 24:56
Taking this out of the prelicense realm a little bit here and and opening up the conversation a little bit more broadly, does our field do a good job of seeking supervision when they need it as licensees? You know, we have this discussion a lot, both here on the podcast and in person. You’re nodding here for our audience out there in podcast world where you can’t watch us on on anything. But there’s this good feeling of like, Yeah, we should get consultation supervision. Where do you stand on when people should be doing this?

Dr. Amy Parks 25:30
I love this question so much, because one of the sort of iterations of The Clinical Supervision Directory has been to sort of invite people in who are licensed to sort of serve as sort of mentor experts. And it hasn’t really evolved yet. But it’s sort of a thought that we have so many people in the field that are also experts in certain areas, EMDR and grief, and, you know, maternal issues, motherhood and things like that, or children, and just a variety of just topics that come up in therapy every day, and that we would wish that we could find across the country, not just as clinicians, but the media could reach and things like that, to your question. I mean, some of us do, I think the ones that I think kind of approach our work with a beginner’s mind as much as we can. But ego gets in the way for many people, I think, and time and resources and networking. And I think a lot of a lot of us, including certainly both of you are doing an amazing job of encouraging that kind of conversation about being curious and getting support. But probably the answer to your question, in the short is no, we probably don’t do enough consultation with one another once we are licensed. Should we do more of it? Yes, I think that we have to continue to consult and continue to be in as much, you know, ongoing training as we can, you know, we are required to have a certain number of the amount of training ongoing, and the California has the probably the most. But you know, ongoing training sure is required. And that’s something our states do pretty well, in terms of mandating. But I don’t even think training is really as important, frankly, as consultation because you just hear the same Charlie Brown’s teacher over and over and over get the same handouts. Yeah. I mean, it’s like the same old same old but talking to somebody and working through an individual case and case consulting is so different, so different from hearing a training, and even hearing a podcast. So the opportunity to do more group supervision with clinicians that are already licensed, I think is a need. I’d love to see us figure out how to do more of time, bandwidth. All of that might prohibit prohibit. But

Katie Vernoy 28:01
I think that’s really interesting, because I I like the direction of this, because I think when folks go out into private practice, I think that it’s something that one of the first questions I see that pops up in like the Facebook groups is, hey, does anybody have a consult group? Because they’ve there, usually, they’ve been either with a supervisor or agency where they had all of this this consultation and collegial interaction. And I think it is important to be able to do that. I guess the question I’m leading up to now, is this this element of How do you find the right person? Because I also see some of these folks get into consultation groups. And it’s not necessarily anyone with expertise on a specific topic. It’s like, let’s come together and talk about kind of broadly clinical issues or how we survive this career and stuff like that. And I think there are times I know, for myself, whether it’s seeking out specific trainings or folks with specific expertise, I have to rely on my network to identify the OCD specialist or the grief specialist or whatever it is. And so when someone’s looking for a specialist it sounds like there’s a directory that that maybe you’ve put together that has some of that there, but I, I think even in the matching, like knowing that this is the right person that I actually want to spend the money and time to talk about this case and get their expertise, like what are some of the considerations there?

Dr. Amy Parks 29:30
Well, I think that there’s room for that. I mean, I think that that sort of a direction that The Clinical Supervision Directory could provide, you know, could I think there’s room for us to serve that purpose. We haven’t realized that room yet or really taken up that space yet. But I do think that that, you know, I think that there’s room for that to be to exist because again, when you’re looking for consultation, from this kind of expert, you can go to, you know, you can search by that term, you can search by grief. You can search by EMDR. You can search by maternal health, you can search by these terms that we have in our lexicon of therapy subjects. And, you know, find anyone in the US with expertise in this area. Or you can find anyone in Illinois with expertise in this area.

Katie Vernoy 30:17
Sure. So once you found kind of that sub list…

Dr. Amy Parks 30:21
Yes.

Katie Vernoy 30:21
What how do you consider like, which one? How do you like what are the well, you can matching with a super right.

Dr. Amy Parks 30:27
Then you look at their bios, or you look at their locations, or you look at their, what languages they speak, or you look at whatever, there’s a full bio there, there’s a photo, there’s their office details, there’s a full array of details about this clinician, it’s like Tinder only not dating because we’re not allowed to do that. I mean, it’s a full, full bio, it’s not just a name and an email address. This is a full, rich, detailed set of information about the supervisor, their photo, their map to their location, a full detailed bio written by the clinician that’s editable by them at any time. You know, all of their specialties, all of their degrees, all of their certificates, all of that information is right there. So you decide what’s important to you. Is it important to you what their pronouns are? Is it important to you what languages they speak? Is it important to you that they’re LGBTQ friendly, is it important to you that they have a specific, you know, certification in that they’re a CSAC? Or have specialty and substance use counseling, you know, what is what’s important to you? I don’t know what’s important to you. I don’t, I don’t need to be the judge of that. I’m just Tinder, I’m just the I’m just the person that’s connecting you. I am the connection super. I’m sorry, I’m clapping again. I’m the connection superhighway. And that’s, you know, that’s my job. And you take it from there, you figure out how best to connect, and what’s important to you.

Curt Widhalm 32:00
Where can people find out about your supervision directory and more about you and your practice.

Dr. Amy Parks 32:08
So The Clinical Supervision Directory is trying to be everywhere. So we are at clinicalsupervisiondirectory.com. Lots of people spell clinical wrong. But be very careful with your spelling, clinicalsupervisiondirectory.com. We’re also on Instagram, @clinicalsupervisiondirectory, and Facebook, same thing, LinkedIn, all the good social medias, so we try to be in all those places. So you can find us in all those places. We’re also going to be trying to hit all the great conferences all over creation. So we’ll be in as many places as we can be. And then my practice is called The Wise Family in Virginia, and we see children and teens. So I try to keep myself pretty busy. And I guess it was different in those different domains. Yeah. And if you want me to supervise you, I’m going to say no, because I’m just too busy doing that. Other thing. One thing I want to add, we’re going to give a special coupon code to your listeners, it’s going to be in your show notes. So we’ll have that for anyone who wants to join The Clinical Supervision Directory as a supervisor, and supervision seekers are always free to search the directory. So what your listeners will get a special coupon code, so I forgot to mention that before. But I want to add it real quick. So I’ll give it to you. So you can add it to your show notes.

Curt Widhalm 33:20
And we will include links to all of those places that we can in our show notes. You can find those over at mtsgpodcast.com. And make sure that you follow us on our social media, come and join our Facebook group, Modern Therapists group. And until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Dr. Amy parks.

Katie Vernoy 33:40
Thanks again to our sponsor, Thrizer.

Curt Widhalm 33:43
Thrizer is a new billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible and clinicians should earn what they are worth. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the clients insurance. From there Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly and directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by cheque, confusion around benefits and obscurity with reimbursement status they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick and easy to get set up and it works great with EHR systems.

Katie Vernoy 34:24
Their team is super helpful and responsive and the founder is actually a longtime therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times Thrizer let you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. Better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won’t be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists and use the code moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free. You will get one month of no payment processing fees meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.

Curt Widhalm 34:59
Once again sign up at bit.ly/moderntherapists and use the code moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free.

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