We Answer the Question: Is EMDR a Pyramid Scheme?
Curt and Katie chat about an episode of Very Bad Therapy that asks the question, Is EMDR a Cultish Pyramid Scheme. This is our response to that question. We talk about what EMDR is, common misconceptions of the model, the concerns with people doing EMDR poorly, and the benefits of this model. We also talk about clinician factors that impact whether someone can do EMDR well.
Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.Transcript
In this podcast episode we explore EMDR
We decided to respond to an episode of Very Bad Therapy. Curt is an EMDR clinician and consultant in training, so he wanted to respond to the criticisms of EMDR that were brought forward in that episode as well as a related article in The Therapist magazine.
What is EMDR?
- Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing
- The mechanism of action is hard to study due to not being able to cut open the brain
- EMDR is a well-defined 8-stage protocol
- The “greatest hits” of other theories put together
What are the misconceptions related to EMDR?
“There’s a lot more clinician factors than I think are really embraced in [EMDR].” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- “It’s expensive,” but the training (which is intensive and comprehensive) breaks down to $35 per CE – a usual and customary rate for continuing education
- There is an argument that the only things that are different from other theories are the eye movements or bilateral stimulation, but it is more of an integrative model
- “EMDR” is manualized and only taught in one way – which is not true. There are a number of stages in the protocol that are taught very differently and there is more nuance
- The criticisms about EMDR may be related to clinician factors, not necessarily model factors
What are the concerns with people doing EMDR poorly?
- Only getting the EMDR certification to be marketable
- Not doing EMDR soon enough and forgetting the model
- Lack of confidence that leads them to revert back to theories they are comfortable with
- Not fully learning the theory and trying to use it outside of the model
- Clinicians with less training or less experience may struggle to adapt the model to complex trauma or relational trauma
What are the benefits of EMDR?
“The metaphor that I have used…is the foundational training is learning how to play with the keys on the piano. The further education and the practice, and the consultations that go along after that, is learning how to play jazz.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Intensive training with deliberate practice being built into the certification
- Consultation and support in learning the model
- Strong research base for single incident trauma
- For stronger or more experienced clinicians, there are uses of EMDR for complex trauma and/or transdiagnostic purposes
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:
We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Very Bad Therapy Podcast episode: Episode 138 – Patreon Selects: Is EMDR a Cultish Pyramid Scheme?
CAMFT article: A Review of EMDR Literature: A Clinician’s Skepticism
EMDR International Association: EMDRIA
Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:
What is Our Fascination with Anything Vaguely Neuroscience?
Unlearning Very Bad Therapy An Interview with Carrie Wiita and Ben Fineman
Are You Even Trauma-Informed? An Interview with Laura Reagan, LCSW-C
Who we are:
Curt Widhalm, LMFT
Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note:
Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
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Connect with the Modern Therapist Community:
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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:
Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):
Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).
… 0:00
(Opening Advertisement)
Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 0:16
Welcome back modern therapists, this is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about the things that we do in our practice and the things that we learn, the arguments that we have with each other. And we are doing something I don’t know that we’ve ever just flat out just responded to another podcast on our own, like without like inviting anybody else on. But we may be a little bit late to this conversation. But we know that when there’s reactions to these kinds of things, people will find their camps and they will fight to the death from there. And of course, we are talking about EMDR, we’re talking about the Very Bad Therapy that started out as a Patreon selects that was released later, but episodes with Angela Nauss, who had previously written an article for the CAMFT therapist magazine, about a clinician skepticism about EMDR. Now, I at the time of this recording am a EMDR, certified therapist through EMDRIA. By the time that this episode publishes, I will probably have submitted my paperwork to be an approved consultant through EMDRIA. And so I am obviously on the maybe pro EMDR side of this. Katie has ideas and opinions.
Katie Vernoy 1:47
Well, I’m not EMDR trained or certified, or a supervisor or any of that kind of stuff. And in reading this article is kind of funny, because the initial part and maybe this was what Carrie over at Very Bad Therapy had put into their title, I’m assuming cause she’s their marketing wiz, but just is it a pyramid scheme? So when you were saying, I am turning in my, yeah, I’m gonna be an EMDR certified supervisor, and I’m sure you’re gonna be training, you’ve done trainings and you’ll continue to train. I’m like, Curt made his way to the top of the pyramid.
Curt Widhalm 2:17
There’s, there’s a higher part of the pyramid. I don’t know that I’m necessarily going for that. But…
Katie Vernoy 2:23
All right, okay. So you’re not at the top of the pyramid. But you certainly made your way up to a lucrative portion of the pyramid. But the argument itself was, I think, kind of interesting, because there were pieces around that it’s only for single incident, not complex trauma, that it’s now using being, being used as transdiagnostic. But only proof for EMDR that there’s there’s a lot of different things in the article, in the episode with Carrie and Ben of Very Bad Therapy that just was talking about that it’s nobody really understands how it works, that it’s a little bit woowoo, which is kind of what I thought it was at first, and that there’s such a huge expense in training in this model, that people then convince themselves that it’s useful. And so for me, I’m just sitting back here kind of entertain that somebody’s poking the bear, so to speak. But I also, I don’t think I really agree with what’s being said there, even though I’m sitting on the outside. And so so I’m gonna, I’m gonna take the first question for you. Because you are.
Curt Widhalm 3:27
I don’t know. I don’t know if this is one of your first questions. But a couple of the statements that you’re you’re making there from the beginning, like this is this huge expense sort of thing. And I think even in the breakdown that they post on their their show notes for that episode, it comes out to like $30 to $35 for supervised hands on practice CEs, where you’re getting immediate feedback from people who are trained in this modality.
Katie Vernoy 3:54
Yeah, so, so I, that wasn’t my question. But let’s start there. So the expense seems reasonable to me. It’s an intensive training with a lot of hands on supervision. There’s a lot to learn there. There’s so much support. So $30 to $35 per CE is, to me, seems pretty reasonable. Now. It’s a lot of CEs. So, you know, one could argue that’s like, why do you need that many CEs, but my sense of it is that it takes that long to get fully trained in it.
Curt Widhalm 4:24
It takes that much to get foundationally trained in it.
Katie Vernoy 4:27
Sure. Sure. Sure. So, so can I get to my first question?
Curt Widhalm 4:31
You can get to your first question. Yes.
Katie Vernoy 4:33
How does EMDR work? What is it? Let’s let’s start at the beginning. I am not EMDR trained.
Curt Widhalm 4:38
This is the other thing that you said at the beginning is…
Katie Vernoy 4:43
My comments me just reporting other people’s comments.
Curt Widhalm 4:47
…of the statements that have been made by people not me on this podcast so far.
Katie Vernoy 4:53
All right. All right.
Curt Widhalm 4:54
Whether the origin and this is something where, okay, there’s an inherent problem in studying the mechanisms for how EMDR works. The prevailing belief is that the bilateral stimulation tends to overwhelm the working memory of which might be holding back some of the trauma that people are holding on to, and that by going through this structure and overwhelming working memory through eye movements for other bilateral stimulation, that that is believed to be the mechanism of change. Now, it’s problematic to study this because we can’t just like cut people’s brains open and mess around with working memory in order to do this. But that is sometimes the criticism that we see as far as there’s, there’s no known reason why this works sorts of things. But I mean, it’s 2023, scientists also don’t fully have an explanation for how bicycles work. So we, you know, I’ll admit, we don’t have the full description of like, okay, here’s why it works. We know, what we do know is that it at least works some of the time. And there’s some major organizations were like, Yeah, this is at least conditionally approved for certain kinds of treatments.
Katie Vernoy 6:15
Okay, so in that explanation, that was very quick, I’m going to try to report back what I heard.
Curt Widhalm 6:23
Ookay.
Katie Vernoy 6:25
That we need to overcome working memory through some sort of eye movement or bilateral stimulation to get to stuff behind the working memory.
Curt Widhalm 6:36
Okay, so let me let me take a step back here. You’re asking for what is essentially 40 plus hours of CEs that I’m going to try and and do it a minute. And we’ll link to something in our show notes that kind of explains this slightly more in depth than what I’m talking about here. EMDR is an eight phase protocol. It is at the broadest steps, phase one, Introduction to EMDR, building rapport with clients, talking about how the approach works.
Katie Vernoy 7:13
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 7:14
Phase two, working on grounding skills, being able to have distress tolerance skills. And other theories might call it other sorts of things. But it’s working on the skills as well as starting to go through and develop an idea of what the targets are, and how those connects to negative cognitions and emotions that people have with them.
Katie Vernoy 7:38
Okay, so I’ve heard this called resourcing and then target setting or something.
Curt Widhalm 7:42
Yes.
Katie Vernoy 7:43
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 7:44
Phase three is the preparation for going into reprocessing. And it’s being able to take the targets, pairing it with a negative cognition, talking about the emotion that it has, as well as the body sensations that somebody is having in the moment as they think about the target, or the target memory. Phases four, or five and six, work on reprocessing the old memory, that’s phase four. And that’s where the introduction of the bilateral stimulation, the eye movements, or in your words, the woowoo stuff ends up happening.
Katie Vernoy 8:21
Okay, that’s where the magic happens.
Curt Widhalm 8:23
No, no, no, the magic happens back in phase two, but and I think that…
Katie Vernoy 8:30
Resourcing is the magic.
Curt Widhalm 8:32
Resourcing and history taking in that kind of stuff. Yeah, though…
Katie Vernoy 8:35
Every other therapy modality has this.
Curt Widhalm 8:37
The things that people skip over to get to the like, Alright, here’s, here’s me waving my fingers in your face sort of thing. But…
Katie Vernoy 8:44
Got it. So the phase two, that’s like every other therapy, every therapy model.
Curt Widhalm 8:50
Phases five, and six is installing a new cognition in looking at the old memory, and then phase eight as a future templates or a future target sort of application of this. So the next time that you feel this negative cognition, how do you want to feel instead? And being able to install that in the future? Phase seven is alright, we’re not going to get through all of this stuff in a session. So here’s how we pause where we’re at and save this for later. So it’s, it’s just the save point. It’s the respawn point for coming back the next session.
Katie Vernoy 9:28
Got it. Got it. Okay. And phase eight.
Curt Widhalm 9:31
Phase eight, is that future templates sort of thing.
Katie Vernoy 9:34
Okay, okay, got it.
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Katie Vernoy 9:37
So, one of the arguments that Angela Nauss said was that it’s basically kind of a hodgepodge of other theories. And the only thing different about EMDR is the bilateral stimulation or eye movement.
Curt Widhalm 9:55
I subscribe to the idea that EMDR is the Greatest Hits Some of the other theories.
Katie Vernoy 10:02
Okay, Greatest Hits. So it’s like, Hey, we’re, we’re taking from everywhere, but only the good stuff.
Curt Widhalm 10:07
Yes. Here’s the parts that work from these other theories put together. It is, I see where she might be coming from on an argument like this. I’m maybe just stating it in a more positive way. But… Yeah, it does have a lot of overlap with a lot of other theories, there are positive and negative cognitions. There are the opportunities for free association. There is the practical skill building techniques. There’s depending on the types of protocols that you’re using, or the frame that you’re building around EMDR, there’s parts work sorts of aspects that can be brought in. I don’t disagree with her. I’m just not presenting it in a way that’s dismissive. I think it’s a great, organized way of taking what might be called eclectic and putting it in a way that works.
Katie Vernoy 11:07
Oh, yeah, that makes sense. I think the reason that she put it that way was that the only differences are the bilateral stimulation or eye movement. And if that’s what makes EMDR unique, and that mechanism, mechanism of action is difficult to actually prove that it is doing something or that it’s more effective than not doing it. I think there’s that element of it’s really hard to prove that EMDR is better than other treatment modalities. And that’s kind of how she frames that folks say that EMDR is the best because it’s better than every other modality. And I know you have argued that that’s not the case. EMDR has its place. But I think there’s that element of if that’s the only difference, and it can’t be proven, because we can’t cut somebody’s brain open. And it relies on neuroscience, and we have a whole episode on neuroscience around why just adding brain scans make people believe it’s more effective. I think that’s, that’s the argument that I think is pretty interesting. Because when people describe EMDR, I’m like, I do all of that, except for waving my hands or bilateral stimulation or whatever.
Curt Widhalm 12:24
I think it’s really important when I hear people having these arguments to be like, what flavor of EMDR are you doing? Because I think that when it comes to the EMDRIA standards, about how EMDR gets trained. EMDRIA standards are phases three through six need to be taught the exact same way. Phases, one, two, and eight can be taught differently depending on the trainer. And those have to be kind of, you know, approved by EMDRIA. But there’s a lot of difference from one training place to the next on how one to eight are taught.
Katie Vernoy 13:04
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 13:04
And so I find that some places are just like, let’s get to phase four as fast as absolutely possible. And I see that as being something where this starts to break apart where I think a lot of people get told, and it’s a it’s a pervasive kind of presentation to people in our field is that it’s the EMDR model that works. And I will, I will argue against that, that I think that. And that’s why it gets compared head to head against CBT so much is that it’s the protocol that works. But I think that this is really where the individual factors of the clinician, as well as their approaches, especially where I mentioned earlier, the magic of EMDR happens in phase two, not not in the hand waving sorts of things or not in the light bar sorts of things. But as compared to CBT in my perspective on things, CBT done by bad therapists can still yield pretty good results and CBT done by good CBT therapists can get really good results. EMDR done by bad therapists can go really wrong. And EMDR done by good therapists can go really, really well. And so there’s a lot more clinician factors than I think are really embraced in this and I think that a lot of just trying the early research around EMDR was kind of this head to head thing against CBT. But I think we’re starting to see more research coming out at least anecdotally that yeah, there’s a lot more clinician factors involved with this than it just being like, Alright, here’s the manual, start reading from phase one on the top of this page and go through this and then your clients will be fixed by you just kind of doing sets of reprocessing.
Katie Vernoy 14:58
So when we’re talking about all of these clinician factors, and really describing it more as there’s the art of therapy, and there’s the, I guess I’ll just say clinician factors again, how does an organization like EMDRIA protect against bad EMDR practitioners. Because if if bad EMDR practitioners can, at best, not help, and at worst provide harm, it seems like there needs to be more consumer protections around someone being able to use EMDR.
Curt Widhalm 15:40
One of the things that EMDRIA is doing is they have, over the last several years, rewritten the requirements to become certified and to become an approved consultant as far as specific steps that need to be done and approved by your consultants. Now, this is where I am kind of shocked when, like the deliberate practice people in particular are the ones who argue against this, because what EMDRIA is doing is they are making deliberate practice part of the certification process and beyond. They’re making it to where sessions have to be reviewed, and this kind of stuff. Now, this gets poo pooed is like, well, this is all part of the, you know, pyramid scheme sort of thing where you have to pay like, consultants to do this. And I’m always like, how did the deliberate practice people get paid? Are they just like out there, like freely given away all of their time? What kind of privileged bullshit is that? Like, it takes time, it takes expense. But I think that this is something where, all right, we’re actually making it if you want to go out and get certified that you actually have to record sessions and have them be reviewed by the consultant in order to make that step.
Katie Vernoy 16:59
I think that seems fair. I think it does start adding to cost and of course, it’s going to, but just saying, we, we shouldn’t do something because it cost too much, even though it’s really, really good. I think it’s always wrong. I think there there are systemic things that maybe as a profession we can do to make becoming and maintaining good therapy stat, good therapists status, more accessible. But that’s not the point of this conversation. This conversation is really like the complaint about the cost is short sighted, because this is a full on, very extensive training that will allow someone to, hopefully do very good work. I mean, I think beyond the scope of this conversation is somebody saying they’re EMDR trained versus EMDR, EMDR certified. I think, potentially, that’s an EMDRIA situation where they have to really market to the public that somebody needs to be certified versus trained to be able to put EMDR on their website. But I think there’s that element of, of, to me, the bad EMDR therapists, so to speak, make it really hard for those of us who don’t know much about it to feel hopeful about it as a as a modality.
Curt Widhalm 18:16
And I, as a consultant in training, I see people who have no interest in pursuing certification, but they continue to go and get trained on things. And this, again, comes down to individual factors that are like, I’ve seen some people who are foundationally trained in EMDR, who are really good EMDR therapists, and I’ve seen people who jumped through a lot of the necessary requirements to become certified who are still pretty bad therapists.
Katie Vernoy 18:47
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 18:48
So…
Katie Vernoy 18:48
You’re saying that this is a problem we can’t solve.
Curt Widhalm 18:51
It’s a problem that you and I have talked about is inherent within our field, like, Oh, here’s a certification that’s gonna make me more marketable. Like, that’s, it’s not unique to EMDR. And it’s also not something that EMDR is really different as far as anything else. Like it’s a problem about attaining certification sorts of things.
Katie Vernoy 19:15
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 19:17
The next piece of what I want to respond to out of what you’re talking to here is that you can, the bad people doing it is also the people who are doing it poorly, also is reflective on a number of different things. I see this, like, people who don’t start doing EMDR quick enough after they’re trained, tend to then do something that’s EMDR flavored, but just because it’s something that they haven’t had the practical practice with. And I really try to encourage people after their part one training like you can start doing EMDR and work with your consultants on questions that you have while you’re doing it. Deliberate practice steps sorts of things.
Katie Vernoy 20:03
Yeah, yeah.
Curt Widhalm 20:04
But there’s a lot of uncertainty that some people tend to develop. I’m not trained enough yet. And I need to be fully trained before I even, you know, breath this. And I think it’s the lack of confidence in themselves, that ends up translating to like the first moment that EMDR doesn’t go as specifically planned, as they have set, they tend to revert back to where safety is, which it might be other theoretical things that they end up doing. So it might be like, oh, and EMDR, didn’t start working in phase two. So now I gotta jump CBT, because that’s where I’m comfortable. So part of this is really just kind of clinician development. And then lastly, to this point is, I’ve also seen people in consultation, and in some of the trainings that I helped run the practicums, with these kinds of things, clinicians who are later career who are just really set in their ways, who don’t kind of take the step back to be able to learn a new theory, in and of itself, that just kind of tend to operate from, well, I know these other things, and therefore, I’m going to do those other things on top of EMDR, that makes it not EMDR. And even going back to my own initial training in this, some of my frustrations as a consultee and kind of my foundational things was like, I work very personally, within a lot of sessions, and have focused a lot on the relational aspects sorts of things. And I brought up I’m like, where do I fit into treatment in EMDR. And my consultant at the time was like, it comes in, there’s kind of a skeleton that you have to embrace first, and then you get to kind of finish filling in how EMDR is with you, while doing these things consistently. And that took some time to develop too.
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Katie Vernoy 22:05
So it’s an intensive model, it is something where you have to do deliberate practice in order to be able to say you’ve been trained in it, it sounds like. And there’s this element of needing to unlearn slash relearn how you show up if you wanting to do kind of adherent EMDR. And so to me, I can I can see all of that. That’s I think we’ve we’ve made those points. So the next objection that came from this article slash podcast was really around single incident versus complex trauma or, and/or transdiagnostic use. And so the argument, and I’m not saying this is my argument, but the argument that was put forward was that EMDR has been researched on single incident trauma, and is being used for complex trauma and for other stuff. Like I saw somebody saying, you know, some advertising something about EMDR for entrepreneurs. And so, I want to kind of hear your thoughts on this, because to me, it does seem like, there are points at which each model that has strong followers, or participants, I don’t know the right word, gets to a place where they’re like, and it works for everything, and everyone, and I’m gonna do it all the time. And I know that’s not your stance, but but I’d love to hear your thoughts on what EMDR actually works for.
Curt Widhalm 23:35
The basis for single incident trauma is well researched, and is approved by date, places even like the American Psychological Association. So not going to spend a ton of time on that. It works. Complex PTSD is something where some clinicians are going to struggle with it a whole bunch. Relational aspects of things, this isn’t necessarily even, I’ve done some trainings with Laurel Parnell, she’s attachment focused EMDR is kind of the underpinnings of what she does, that is geared pretty well to being able to deal with things like relational trauma aspects. From there, it’s just a matter of being able to set the targets in the correct sort of way and being able to respond to them. The other protocols that are out there that I’ve used to some degree or another involves parts work, which, you know, some of the parts work out there, if you’re familiar with internal family systems is it’s got some similarities to that. Other parts work isn’t just necessarily IFS planted on EMDR sorts of things. Yeah, there are totally going to be people who are excited about things that are like, I’m going to try this on everybody for everything. And I’ll admit that not every clinical presentation needs EMDR. And that is something where the mismanagement of individual practitioners who go out and do things does not necessarily change what the basis is for those cases where it actually is supposed to work. You know, if I go out and I’m like, Oh, your car has a flat tire, have we tried to CBT that? doesn’t make CBT bad. It makes it to where it’s the misapplication of CBT.
Katie Vernoy 25:28
So I’ll repeat the question. So we get to the actual question I asked, which is, what does it work for?
Curt Widhalm 25:34
It works for trauma.
Katie Vernoy 25:36
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 25:36
It works for trauma in the way that the clinician and the client set it up together. I’ve done personally single incident trauma, I’ve done complex trauma, I’ve seen the benefit out of it. Is that going to be the same as everybody else? Absolutely not. I’ve done it for recent traumas, things that have happened, you know, a few days prior to treatments. I’ve done it for stuff that happened decades and decades ago. And again, I think that that’s something where, sure, I’ve invested a lot into my training and education on this kind of stuff. I don’t do it with all of my clients. I see that there’s a utility of EMDR. Sometimes that doesn’t even include eye movements. It’s just the structure of the ways that phases one, two and three work. And is there overlap with other theories in there? Totally. I think that it’s just kind of where the absolute rote following of the protocols in some of the research treatments, make it to where it’s not going to work for everybody. That there are definitely clinician factors that come into this.
Katie Vernoy 25:36
Okay. I mean, to me, it seems like we consistently go back to: do good therapy, and don’t hold too strongly to a model, because a model is just that. It’s a model that potentially will work. But, you know, kind of just following it exactly to the letter isn’t necessarily always beneficial for every single client. And so yes, learn the model as you’re supposed to, but learn also where it doesn’t apply.
Curt Widhalm 27:27
The metaphor that I have used since completing my foundational training, is the foundational training is learning how to play with the keys on the piano. The further education and the practice, and the consultations that go along after that, is learning how to play jazz. There’s frustration that I think that I hear from a lot of people who criticize EMDR, even those who have been trained is that, but playing the keys on the piano doesn’t make a good song.
Katie Vernoy 28:05
That’s a very interesting, interesting metaphor. Did you know that I actually was in the jazz band and played piano?
Curt Widhalm 28:13
I did not.
Katie Vernoy 28:13
…in Junior High. Yeah, I was horrible. Like I was trying to, you know, like, I was fine. I was, I was more of a, this is how you play a song. Not this is how you improvise on the piano. And so it’s interesting, because I’m going to expand that metaphor a little bit based on my lived experience as a jazz pianist, at a very young age, so not very good anyway, but like, playing the keys is noise. Playing the keys in the right order is a song. Being able to improvise within the structure of the keys and that kind of stuff is jazz. And so I think folks who have learned very little, learn how to play the keys, but it just noise people that have taken a little bit more actually done some of the deliberate practice, know how to play a song. But to actually be able to improvise and use it on things that are a little bit out of the single incident trauma that requires the skill level to be able to improvise as jazz.
Curt Widhalm 29:16
And even sight read as jazz sorts of things like, I don’t know if we can make this a Piano Jazz episode, but we would love to hear your thoughts on this. And you can share those with us on our social media, you can join our Facebook group, the Modern Therapists group, and if you liked the things that we talked about and want to support us in other ways, please consider becoming a patron. We have discussions sometimes with our patrons that lead to episodes and we always love your input. You can also support us on Buy Me a Coffee, and until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
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Announcer 29:55
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