Is Your Therapist Website ADA Compliant? – An Interview with Anita Avedian, LMFT
Curt and Katie interview Anita Avedian, LMFT about her recent experiences related to an ADA complaint on her website. Anita shares with us how she has navigated this lawsuit and what she’s learned about ADA Compliance for websites. We also talk about the predatory lawsuits on small businesses in California and the benefits of becoming ADA compliant for therapists.
Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.Transcript
An Interview with Anita Avedian, LMFT
Anita Avedian is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (License # LMFT 38403) and has been practicing psychotherapy since 1996. Anita is the Executive Director of both Avedian Counseling Center and Anger Management 818, a boutique group practice servicing the Greater Los Angeles area. Her specialties include working with relationships, anger, social anxiety, general anxiety, and addictions. She also has been certified as a Thought Field Therapist (TFT) and Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT), both which she integrates into her practice.
Outside of therapy, Anita offers a monthly anger management certification program to counselors. Anger Management Essentials is an approved National Anger Management Association (NAMA) model which is used for anger management certification. Moreover, Anita is an Authorized NAMA Trainer and Anger Management Supervisor for certifying anger management specialists. She is a Certified Anger Management Specialist IV and a Diplomat Member of NAMA. She authored Anger Management Essentials, a workbook for aggression, which has been translated into Spanish, Armenian, and Hebrew, as well as the teen’s workbook which has been translated into Spanish. Anita is the co-Founder of the California Chapter of the NAMA which is the California Chapter of Anger Management Providers, and the Founder of Toastmasters for Mental Health Professionals. Anita appeared on Good Day LA discussing Road Rage, and has appeared in several reality shows including Vanderpump Rules offering therapy. Anger Management 818 has also been recommended by Dr. Phil.
In this podcast episode, we look at what therapists should know about ADA compliant websites
Our friend, Anita Avedian, LMFT, just went through a legal complaint related to her website. It was found to not be ADA compliant, meaning that she had to pay some fines and update her website. She wanted to share what she learned, so we thought – let’s bring this conversation to the podcast!
What is needed for a website to be ADA compliant?
“[Therapists are] responsible to make sure all of our websites are in compliance with ADA guidelines.” – Anita Avedian, LMFT
- Images have to have alt text
- Videos have to have closed captioned at 95% accurate
- Videos need both closed captions and transcripts
- Contrast colors need to be far enough apart for visibility
- Appropriate font sizes
- Buttons and navigation system have to be ADA compliant
- You cannot have PDFs on your website, you must have documents
- When you are cited, you have to make corrections and keep it up
What goes into an ADA compliance lawsuit against a website (including therapist websites)?
- There are predatory lawyers who are seeking out noncompliance to open lawsuits with small businesses
- There are thousands of lawsuits
- Your liability insurance doesn’t cover these claims because it is considered discriminatory
- Oftentimes you don’t know that you’re being sued
- There is not an opportunity to make corrections, you are fined and must make corrections immediately
- There is usually oversight and monitoring for 5 years
How can therapists make their websites more accessible?
“Most website people for therapists are not aware of and/or will say I can’t do this ADA compliant, because it’s really challenging to change it all up, for it to become compliant.” – Anita Avedian, LMFT
- Accurate transcripts and closed captioning for videos
- Making sure that you are at least 95% compliant by doing a free scan
- Using some of the resources listed below (in the resources section)
- Having a deep scan to identify how close you are to compliance
- Making sure that your web developers know how to make your website ADA compliant
- There are attorneys to help with this process and can provide training on how to make a website ADA compliant
- Side benefits of improved SEO and Google standing
- There isn’t currently a widget to make your website ADA compliant and website themes and templates do not have these requirements built in structurally
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:
We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
www.AvedianCounselingCenter.com
www.AngerManagementEssentials.com
WCAG 2.0 is the compliance level
The law firm Anita is using: Scott Karlin Law – https://www.karlinlaw.com/
- Scott Karlin Law review of ADA widgets such as Accessibe – https://www.karlinlaw.com/ada-accessibility-law/ada-plug-ins-and-widgets-reviewed
- They also have more information about website ADA lawsuits here – https://www.karlinlaw.com/ada-accessibility-law/ada-website-lawsuits-and-compliance
Ecomback.com helps with updating websites to become ADA compliant. Please be sure to mention Anita Avedian as the referring source. https://www.ecomback.com
Guidance on Web Accessibility and the ADA by ADA.gov: https://www.ada.gov/resources/web-guidance
The law Anita violated was the Unruh Act. Cal. Civ. Cod § 51 (f), discrimination under the ADA, including the right to equal access 42 U.S.C. § 12182 (b) (1) (E).
Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:
Open to Opportunity: An Interview with Anita Avedian, LMFT
Special Episode: Modern Therapist’s Consumer Guide on Mulberry Web Design (Our Web Designer)
Revisiting SEO and AI – Ethics and best practices: An Interview with Danica Wolf
SEO Guide for Therapists: An Interview with Dr. Rachna Jain
Who we are:
Curt Widhalm, LMFT
Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note:
Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy:
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community:
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:
Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):
Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).
… 0:00
(Opening Advertisement)
Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm, and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 0:15
Welcome back modern therapists, this is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm, with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about things that go on in our professions and in our practices. And oftentimes, the conversations that don’t seem to happen anywhere until they need to happen, and in our ever, you know, ongoing quest to continue to make sure that therapists are informed about everything, we are bringing one of our guests back from before. One of our former Therapy Reimagined speakers, a good friend of mine and Anita Avedian, LMFT. And she’s here to talk about some trouble that happens. Before we get to that, can you tell us who you are and what you’re putting out into the world?
Anita Avedian 1:02
Absolutely. So as you mentioned, I’m Anita Avedian. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist, the executive director of a Avedian Counseling Center, and Anger Management 818. So we do offer therapy services throughout LA, we have five locations. And we offer couples therapy, individual therapy, and we have over 12 groups a week right now for anger management, and a social anxiety group.
Katie Vernoy 1:28
That’s a nice big practice. And my assumption is that means that you have a nice, robust website, but you just had some trouble with that website. Just tell us what happened there.
Anita Avedian 1:40
Yeah, of course. So I this was in December, I had, I didn’t even realize this, but I received this letter, marketing, several marketing letters from attorneys telling me that there’s been a case that’s been opened up against me, for my website, anger management818.com. And it was because the website was not ADA compliant. And this was a news for me, because I don’t think I had any idea of the requirements of what had to happen, or that we needed to have websites to be compliant. My website person had never informed me of it. So it’s literally information I’ve never heard as a therapist, that we were responsible to make sure all of our websites are in compliance with ADA guidelines. So this was a surprise and a learning curve. And I’ve been working hard at making sure everyone is aware, so that others don’t go through what I’m going through.
Curt Widhalm 2:46
So I know that from some of our off the air conversations, but would you say what you’re going through? Can you help our listeners understand the gravity of what it is that you’re going through?
Anita Avedian 2:58
So obviously, there’s a lawsuit out there and I selected an attorney to hire who I thought had a pretty good reputation in California. And so the attorney has helped me out a great deal. But with that the demand of the person who is suing me is that I have to be compliant with what is supposed to be. I wrote it out: So it’s WCAG 2.0, or 2.1 is where all websites need to be at at the minimum. And so…
Katie Vernoy 3:29
W C A G, can you tell me what that is? You know what that is?
Anita Avedian 3:32
I don’t. I am not an IT person. I cannot describe it to you. But I could tell you that, I could tell you a little bit of what’s involved.
Katie Vernoy 3:41
Okay.
Anita Avedian 3:41
So if you have a, if you have any images on your website, they have to have the I forgot what it is. It’s the alt…
Katie Vernoy 3:49
Alt text.
Anita Avedian 3:50
Alt text associated with it. So any pictures, any sounds, any audio, you if you have videos up, you should have the closed captions that are at least 95% accurate. So it doesn’t count just that you have closed captions, they actually you have to review it to make sure they capture more than 95% accuracy. And the videos. So if you have videos, they should have both closed captions. And the oh man I’m blanking the script for it?
Curt Widhalm 4:23
Transcripts.
Anita Avedian 4:24
Transcripts, thank you. And that also has to be 95% accurate and up. So you have to kind of go through very labor intensive because what it can capture most software’s out there, it’ll capture some of it or most of it, but definitely not at the expectation that you’re supposed to be meeting. Navigation system. Don’t ask me what it’s supposed to be but my navigation system was not ADA compliant. The contrast colors have to have a certain ratio of the colors.
Katie Vernoy 4:52
So they have to be far enough apart.
Anita Avedian 4:54
Yeah, there’s literally like a percentage it has to meet for each page, for each area, for each section. Certain buttons have to be ADA compliant. There’s, there’s a lot more involved, I’m just kind of sharing what some of that is. And it’s not easy to upkeep and to maintain.
Katie Vernoy 5:14
Wow, okay, so you did not have these things, and someone came to sue you. And so you had to get an attorney. And now you’re in the process of making these corrections on your website.
Anita Avedian 5:28
Yeah. Yeah. And, and the corrections itself cost, like over $10,000, just so you know, because I have four websites that I’m having to. Not that I had to correct all four, but I am. Yeah, so the corrections cost a lot of money, because it really is a lot of changes. And to keep up with it, you have to, you know, you get reports in with deep scans every month to let you know where things are at. But yeah, there’s a lot to keep up. You can’t have PDFs on your website, PDFs are not ADA compliant. If you have any documents up, you have to make sure that also has the alt text and description of anything that is needed to have. So Microsoft Word makes it easy, where you can test the accessibility that PDFs itself or not. So you’ll see that that gets converted to documents instead, like Word documents.
Curt Widhalm 6:25
So on our listeners behalf, this just feels like an avalanche of, oh, no, websites are out of compliance and the sky is falling and all of this kind of stuff. Like you’re just throwing around terms like scans and like, where are people getting these scans? Is this like, go and type into a search engine, like website ADA compliance thing? Does that then put you on a list of somebody else to sue you if your website’s not in compliance?
Anita Avedian 6:58
I don’t know. But I could tell you this, my understanding is, yes, you definitely have people with disabilities who do get upset that the website is not ADA compliant. So it doesn’t make it easy for them to see or hear or understand what’s going on. And so, so of course, there are going to be cases where they deserve the right to see and hear and, you know, be able to, to basically whatever you have out there for the public that they too can access. But I think there has been what’s really out there with what’s happening right now is there are law firms who literally scan random websites throughout California. And they see all the websites that are not ADA compliant. And they’ll have people who will pursue the lawsuit and say, by the way, I’m deaf, and you have this video up and I couldn’t follow it. So I’m hurt. And here’s my lawsuit and pay up. And then keep up with it thereafter. Because if you don’t, we’ll come back for more. So there’s demands there, or someone who’s blind, they get on the website, and they can’t, you know that the transcripts aren’t there for them to read through, I mean to to for it to read out loud. So they can pursue as well. But right now, it’s really there’s a lot of attorneys out there who are in the in this business and searching for websites that are not ADA compliant, and opening up lawsuits. It’s in the 1000s.
Katie Vernoy 8:35
So there’s an element of this where it feels very predatory by these attorneys. But there’s the other the other side, which is making our websites accessible. I mean…
Anita Avedian 8:45
Yeah.
Katie Vernoy 8:45
What do you see as the things that you’re doing that feel most important to do for accessibility, and that are kind of reasonable to do for a therapist that maybe doesn’t have $10,000 to completely redo their website. And this isn’t, we’re not saying this is legal advice, just kind of the things that you found most helpful in your journey for making your websites more accessible.
Anita Avedian 9:07
I mean, definitely, when it comes to videos for the closed captions, and the and the transcripts, I can tell you, my staff has been working on that for two months now… it, and it’s still not done. So it’s very labor intensive. If you want to do it the right way. If you have it on YouTube, and you know, share that this is on a third party platform, say something like that, that may get you a little bit out of liability, where YouTube provides the closed captions and the transcripts, but you still really have to review to make sure it’s, you know, pretty accurate with what’s being shared. In general I mean, like, like, obviously I went through this it’s not a fun experience to go through. I’m getting into trouble and our CPH insurance does not cover it. My umbrella policy does not cover it. So you’re not covered, none of us are. And so because it’s considered discriminatory. Alright, so we’re not covered for this. And no one’s really told us like, by the way, you guys, as therapists, you have to have your websites ADA compliant. Most therapists I talked to about they don’t they hear it and like, not a big deal. We don’t really have to. Okay. So, but, but I, I mean, obviously, if the website person is knowledgeable, great, because they can keep up but my not my website person had no idea at all. And I’m hearing it more and more out there that most website people for therapists are not aware of and/or will say I can’t do this ADA compliant, because it’s really challenging to change it all up to for it to become compliant.
… 10:49
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Katie Vernoy 10:51
The conversations that Curt and I had with our web developer was, if you’re 100% compliant, it is a much more expensive website to put together. If you’re partially compliant, then, you know, there’s some expense, but it’s not this $10,000 worth of kind of building it out. And I don’t know that there’s any safe level, right?
Anita Avedian 11:15
Right.
Katie Vernoy 11:16
Or is there is there to determine how compliant you are?
Anita Avedian 11:21
It’s typically 95% is the magic number, so long as your 95% and up, you’re probably going to stay out of trouble.
Katie Vernoy 11:28
Okay, how do I know if I’m 95% compliant?
Anita Avedian 11:31
You can go through different websites like ecomeback will do it. And I’ll talk about ecomeback because I’m using them as a service, that they can do deep scans, they can do a free audit for anyone who wants to try it, and they could give you reports back. Because I had that, you know, when I initially found out about it, I went to Accessibe and I downloaded their widget. And, and my attorney said, Actually, you’re gonna get yourself in more trouble using them, because they come off saying that they’re compliant, but they’re really not, they just help it become more accessible. So apparently, there’s certain attorneys that search for people use Accessibe and sue them. Oh, because the platform is not, it’s not a, it’s really not about compliancy. So. So with Accessibe, my website became 80% compliant, not good enough. So we had to, like redo the whole thing.
Katie Vernoy 12:25
So ecomeback is where you get that percentage number?
Anita Avedian 12:28
That’s one. You can find out, there’s a lot of websites, you could do a deep scan, like people will help people become compliant, they’ll do a free audit for you, they’ll do deep scan for you. Usually people use three different programs to do the scan to capture everything. And so I think that’s a great thing for all therapists to put their website through. It’s free, find out where you stand, see what it would be involved to implement all of the changes. So with for example, the company I used ecomeback, they let you know, here, all the changes that’s going to be required. And here’s what the cost will be. So they’re typically, I mean, depends on the website, but I’ve heard them charge certain people $2,000 or $3,000, or $5,000, depending on how complex the website is. But they’re doing all four my websites, which is why the cost has higher. So so, but there’s also another company I checked with, and they were going to be $10,000 for one website. So they’re you know, I mean, that the the financial component really varies, but but I do like the company I’m using, they’ve been pretty responsive and on top of it and friendly. And you know, they they really kind of help you see what needs to change and why. What numbers that has to meet. What makes it ADA compliant. So, so I’ve liked using them for that reason. I’ve heard of other ones that are really good, too, but just a lot more expensive, which I didn’t want to get more into.
Katie Vernoy 14:00
Yeah.
Anita Avedian 14:01
You know.
Curt Widhalm 14:02
You’re talking about the website developers not really understanding all of the compliance stuff. And I’m wondering in kind of your attorney discussions as well, were you magically able to find somebody who’s like, Yes, I know all of the things that you need to do and are was there just kind of like, even within the legal space, there’s a lot of people that aren’t quite fully sure of what all of the laws on this are.
Anita Avedian 14:30
I haven’t searched for a website person yet who is aware. I’m having these guys train my web person. And so my web guy is working with them to make it ADA compliant. So he’s also learning what they are in the process. And the attorney I hired, they also do a training for the web people. So part of the fee of my legal fees involves that too. It’s an educational component, to train the web person with how to upkeep the website to make sure it’s ADA compliant. So then you have to pay the web person to attend all that too.
Katie Vernoy 15:07
Yeah, it just seems like it’s very cost prohibitive to have a website, if you really are, if this is a risk., I mean, it seems like the simpler your website, the more likely you can keep it ADA compliant without it getting too, too expensive. But then there’s another element of, if you’re a group practice, if you have multiple businesses, there’s an opportunity that you have to navigate between pages, there’s a lot of other things that are going on there. And I guess for folks who have big businesses, it’s like, pay attention to this. For folks who are, you know, kind of smaller practices? Do you feel like and maybe have a page or two on their website? Do you feel like it’s doable to like, start from the beginning with ADA compliance?
Anita Avedian 15:54
You know, now that I’m in it, I if if someone has the patience to learn what’s involved, it is doable. I personally don’t know how to create a website. I know most therapists I think do at this point. I don’t know how to create a website. I don’t understand the lingo. None of it. So…
Katie Vernoy 16:08
Yeah.
Anita Avedian 16:09
So I just have my web person do it all. We’re in meetings with these guys. So he’s, you know, every couple of weeks, he’s updating, updating, they’re updating, you know, it’s, it’s literally it’s been a few months now, we’ve all been updating, and it’s never ending, but it’s, but once you learn, like what to expect, how to, you know, colors to have, contrast to have font, font, font size, you name it, it all matters. But to answer your question, I think the more simple a website is, the easier it will be, the more prettier a website is, with images and pictures and videos and audio, the more at risk, you’re if you’re not careful around all of what needs to get done.
Katie Vernoy 16:53
When you’re talking about like alt text, as well, as you know, some of the like transcripts, those kinds of things, that actually helps with SEO. We started doing alt text for our pictures because of that. And so we’ve improved our compliancy because we’ve added pictures with alt text, which which improves SEO. So there’s, there’s potentially a benefit here to having these things going on for sure. And if you have transcripts on your, on your website for, for example, a podcast that’s chock full of keywords that people can search, right. So I think there’s, there’s elements to this that can kind of fold into other business goals. But it seems like some of the back end stuff is truly about accessibility, like being able to navigate using a reader or those types of things. It seems like those, those elements are much easier if they’re folded in at the beginning, but may be cost prohibitive at the beginning for folks just starting their practices.
Anita Avedian 17:51
Right. And, you know, you pointed out a great point, it’s it’s a silver lining that I looked at, which is, in the end, this is going to help us with SEO. But more importantly, it’s also going to reach an audience that we would have missed otherwise.
Katie Vernoy 18:06
Sure.
Anita Avedian 18:07
You know, we don’t realize how many disabilities that are out there and how much this can actually help bring in folks who do have disabilities, who otherwise would not have been able to access the website’s content, and what they could have gained from it. But definitely the benefit is going to be SEO with it. And Google will like your website more because it recognizes that you’re compliant.
Katie Vernoy 18:31
Hmm.
Anita Avedian 18:32
Right.
Katie Vernoy 18:32
Interesting.
Anita Avedian 18:33
There is that benefit too. So I had to like justify all this in my head. That’s okay. It’s okay. It’s costing money. But in the end silver lining.
Curt Widhalm 18:45
As part of your process, you found out about being sued through people selling you, you know, basically defense services.
Anita Avedian 18:54
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 18:54
So I want to kind of talk about that part of the process here a little bit too. That you were getting sued without being known about it.
Anita Avedian 19:03
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 19:03
I’m also guessing that you were not given any chance to have like a timeframe to make corrections, that this was just immediately to like damages and that kind of stuff.
Anita Avedian 19:13
Yes. There’s no that that you have to pay up. And then you have to keep up with the changes. Otherwise, they could come back for a lot more.
Katie Vernoy 19:23
So there’s not an opportunity to rectify it.
Anita Avedian 19:26
No.
Katie Vernoy 19:26
This is you are discriminatory and out of compliance. Full stop.
Anita Avedian 19:31
Yeah.
Katie Vernoy 19:31
Damages are rewarded. And you have to fix everything.
Anita Avedian 19:35
Yeah.
Katie Vernoy 19:35
Immediately.
Anita Avedian 19:36
Yeah. And you have to upkeep for the next five years. And that’s, and that’s part of the agreement. Yep. Fun times.
Curt Widhalm 19:47
Very few times that Katie and I are just kind of left speechless on these kinds of things. Like you said there’s legitimate reasons for ADA to have this in space. Have this in place for people with disabilities. And there are trolls out there, as you’re describing on this. As you’re talking more about this with, you know, the people in your life, are you finding that other therapy practices are running into this? Is it in small businesses in general, all walks of life kinds of things? I guess I’m ultimately getting to, why do you think it was you that got targeted in this?
Anita Avedian 20:29
It’s, you know, it’s a website that attorneys scanned, or perhaps this individual who the person suing me is, like, three hours away. So I don’t think they were really reaching out for the services. They were offended that they tried watching one of the videos, a 15 second video that did not have captions on it. Most of my videos had closed captions, by the way, we’re talking about a couple that did not. So put that aside, okay. But…
Katie Vernoy 21:03
Take a deep breath, use my anger management skills.
Anita Avedian 21:07
So, but the these attorneys, they, the DA of Los Angeles and the DA of San Francisco, actually, we’re going after this law firm, because since 2020, they’ve literally done like a shakedown of all small businesses, or a lot of small businesses in California. And I think it increased by 300% one year later. It’s literally in business, I can’t explain it, it’s not. Again, I just want to say, obviously, for someone who goes on a website, is legit, they’re offended. You know, typically, if I want to see or hear something, I’ll contact the website person and request it. I mean, that’s like the, you know, I guess, nice thing to do. And we would correct it and help them see it or understand it, whatever the needs are. But this is not that. So this is not an actual potential client. This is, this is the law firm that the two DAs of San Francisco and LA pursued and, and started to investigate because of their practices. And but because it’s a law, and we as individuals pass this as a law, they’re in the right, so they can readily sue us for breaking this law. So it’s been in, I think it’s been a law for over 10 years now. My wish was that CAMFT, or a professional association made it more clear and brought awareness to this and helped us become aware of this and provided resources for it. Literally, it I had never even heard of it. And, you know, so it was it was really like a surprise to get like four different soliciting letters from different law firms. And I have no idea who this individual like it was just to, you know, surprise in that way. So I don’t want anyone else to go through this, which is why I literally just started notifying so many therapists, whether it’s Facebook groups, or whatever, to let them know, you guys look into this, because, you know, don’t get into trouble.
… 23:17
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Katie Vernoy 23:17
I think the the point that you made was really good, which is, I think we’ve even had this where somebody wasn’t able to access some of the content. And this was before we were doing transcripts and everything for for all of our stuff and said, Hey, this is what I need, can you do it? And we’re like, Okay, let’s see what we can do. And it seems like person by person, that can be something that’s helpful. Granted, it’s not, you know, you would hope that you could be accessible enough that that wouldn’t be the case. But all of the things that you’re describing and the laws, it sounds like they’re fairly rigid, there’s, there’s a lot there. And so there’s not this opportunity to have that conversation, to make corrections, to do the things. It’s just kind of this law firm that’s going after folks. And so we’re talking about risk, right? Like, what is the risk that my website is going to be pursued by a law firm like this, or law firms like this? And I think that’s that’s one element. And I think one element that I think is important to talk about is being accessible and trying to think about that, because I think what you’re saying is the silver lining of people being able to access your content who were not able to access it before, I think is, as well. But I think for for looking at the the risk and the the liability around these laws. I mean, what is the state of legislation like, you know, how are we? How are we understanding this? And is there a law, a specific law that we can look at to kind of understand what the compliance requirements are?
Anita Avedian 24:44
There is, and I wish I had it written down.
Katie Vernoy 24:47
Well, we can add it to the show notes later. There is a law.
Anita Avedian 24:50
Well, yeah.
Katie Vernoy 24:50
We’ll put it in the show notes. But there is legislation. Yeah.
Anita Avedian 24:53
Yeah there is a law. And I think there was legislation to make it even more strict. We’re going to be almost impossible for people to keep up with it. Like right now, it’s already almost impossible to keep up with it. But there’s going to be a more strict legislation coming through around this that will make it almost impossible. But to my that, and that’s what I was informed about a month ago.
Katie Vernoy 25:20
What is what does that mean? I mean, what is the purpose of of laws that become unfallible? Like that doesn’t make sense to me.
Anita Avedian 25:29
What’s sad is, to my knowledge, my understanding is that. So you have, let’s say, ADA says, Okay, this is what we expect for you guys to follow as websites, but they have not come up with a widget that’s been approved yet that will make it compliant. And when so when you have like a law like this in place, it’s very expensive to keep up with it, it’s almost impossible to keep up with it. And there’s no approved widget, where they could say, Okay, if you guys have this widget that you’re using, you’re pretty safe. Like that. So so that’s where the frustrations are, you know, it would be great where a widget comes around, where people can just implement or pay 50 or 100 a month for, and your website would be a ADA compliant. But but that’s not there.
Katie Vernoy 26:23
Well, I’m even thinking that if the legislation and the regulation is actually at the individual business owner, it feels like it’s in the wrong place. I mean, I think about all of the, you know, the different web platforms and the I can’t even think of the name of the backend, we are like not tech people trying to have this conversation.
Anita Avedian 26:45
Right.
Katie Vernoy 26:46
But it’s, you know, like the, the framework for your website. You know, there’s a lot of them: WordPress or SquareSpace or whatever, you put things together, and you’re allowed to put it together, not ADA compliant, like that’s not built in to the platform, the… Do you know what I’m talking about?
Anita Avedian 27:06
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 27:06
Yeah. And, you know, part of what I’m thinking here is just kind of where these laws generally fall is. If you’re a business operating in a public space, you have to meet ADA requirements, unless there’s certain like, physical structures sorts of things like if your building was built before ADA was in place, you’re kind of grandfathered in. If your website was built before ADA was put in place, you’re very strange. And so you’re expected to meet up with these requirements, and you’re expected to continue to know what the laws require of you. That ignorance in these situations is not a defense, it’s not something that you’re able to do. And this is where, you know, I’m being a law and ethics guy and being connected to a lot of people. It’s this weird kind of space, when I get texts like I did from Anita where it’s just like, hey, I’m being sued, you should probably check out your websites, but also just trying to spread, spread the message. And we’re like, How soon can you be on the podcast and talk about probably one of the weirdest spaces to be in, in your life. But a lot of this comes down to Yeah, we do want to have this responsibility Anita’s going through all of the kind of wonderful reframing that, you know, she is through all of this and helping to spread this message to everybody, because it is something where there’s already a lot of costs to getting into this field. But it’s cheaper than being sued.
Anita Avedian 28:52
Yeah.
Katie Vernoy 28:53
Yeah.
Anita Avedian 28:53
That’s for sure.
Katie Vernoy 28:54
I figured out the word so because this may be legislation that we want to or advocacy want to do. Like the the themes or the templates that people create their websites on it was theme.
Anita Avedian 29:08
Yes, I love it.
Katie Vernoy 29:09
But if if those could could be required to be updated to be ADA compliant, it would give us a lot of a lot of background, right, like we would we would be building into a compliant platform. And then it would be about keeping the, you know, the alt text and the other things and all of that, that would would allow for new content to be accessible, but but because they’re not, and because there’s there’s all of this legislation that’s being regulated without any real help or widgets or appropriate themes, because we’re, we’re in this space where we are business owners, and especially as our businesses grow, we become bigger targets because they think we have money. We got to pay attention to this. So any any last minute pieces of advice for our audience, Anita?
Anita Avedian 30:05
I mean, do do the free scan. I mean, that’s it’s free, just see where your website is at. I know a lot of people started using Accessibe or certain widgets. Be careful because they say they’re compliant, but they’re really not. And they’re literally law firms looking to see if you’re using those widgets to sue you as well. Like, it’s like you’re not safe using it. It’s great, like it assists. You know, it assists for people with accessibility issues, but it’s not going to make you compliant with it. There’s something I do want to add real quick, because I know this comes up. Some people research on Google and they say, Oh, I thought if you have 15 employees or more, then you have to be compliant. That’s a title one issue. Our websites as a title three issue. It’s just you that has your website, and that’s already at risk. So there’s a lot of therapists who Google search that, but that’s title one. That’s like an employee thing. Title three, is this one. Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 31:06
You are not lawyers. And you are, I mean, even those of us who talk a lot of you know, law and ethics sorts of things. We talk about the specific parts of the law that we know. And this is, you know, a fantastic thing that I see a lot in just kind of talking about laws and ethics sorts of things is, oh, but if I ignore the 99% of things that I didn’t look at, then I can do some mental gymnastics into trying to be correct. And thank you for pointing out that there’s a lot more out there. And that’s why you need to have competent legal people. And it’s very much something that will keep you out of even more expensive trouble.
Anita Avedian 31:55
Yeah, for sure.
Curt Widhalm 31:57
Once you finish panicking, we would love to have you check out how to get in touch with Anita. Where can people do that?
Anita Avedian 32:05
Sure. So you can call me my numbers 818-426-2495 Or check out my website at avedianounselingcenter, A V E D I A N counseling center.com.
Curt Widhalm 32:22
And you can check out our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com. Follow us on our social media and join our Facebook groups, the Modern Therapists group where you can continue on these conversations. And until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Anita Avedian.
… 32:39
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