Are Therapy and Coaching All That Different?

Curt and Katie chat about the differences between coaching and therapy, for a second time. We look at some common myths (and how coaches continue to share this misinformation). We also look at how therapists can effectively incorporate coaching into their therapy sessions, with client consent. Finally, we discuss the challenges inherent in coaching and in therapy, and why therapists may feel they need to choose one or the other.

In this podcast episode we talk the differences between coaching and therapy

We’ve come back around to exploring coaching. We look at the differences, the pros and cons, and what therapists can incorporate into therapy.

What are the differences between coaching and therapy?

• There are no regulations for coaching
• Therapists are limited to providing services where they are licensed or have practicing privileges
• Coaching is often more directive (but therapy can be directive as well)
• Coaching has flexibility to work outside of session (although therapists can do coaching calls and more experiential work)
• Therapy often requires “medical necessity,” and can treat more serious concerns
• There are sometimes different structures between how therapy and coaching are set up (i.e., coaching has more room for asynchronous courses)
• There is a false story that therapy always looks at the past or sees clients as broken

What parts of coaching can therapists incorporate into therapy?

“There are a lot of things that coaches do that therapists can and probably should do in their work, that helps to get people to the goals that they’re asking for.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT

• Therapists can use a more directive, coaching style, even though not all therapists do
• Therapists, within a treatment agreement, can (and should) hold clients accountable and have more specific goals
• Lived experience informing the work
• Marketing with specificity and focused expertise

Why do therapists feel they need to choose between therapy and coaching?

“I think a lot of therapists find it very challenging to navigate having [coaching] as part of their therapy practice because the relationships you have with your clients are different.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT

• It is more complicated to provide different services to your clients
• There is a potential for dual relationships and the rules are different within coaching
• The need for informed consent can hinder some of the other types of services that fit into coaching
• Coaching is for the “worried well” whereas therapy can include folks with deeper issues

Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:

We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!

Therapy vs. Coaching: What are the differences by Katie Read

Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:

The Dividing Line Between Coaching and Therapy

Thriving Over Surviving: Growing a Practice without Burn Out, An Interview with Megan Gunnell, LMSW

Clinical Marketing, An interview with Katie Read, LMFT

Therapists Shaming Therapists, An Interview with Katie Read, LMFT

Clinician AND Entrepreneur, An Interview with Jo Muirhead

Why Do Therapists Feel They NEED to be Coaches? – An Interview with Jo Muirhead

Conscious and Trauma-Informed Leadership: An interview with Kelly L. Campbell

It’s the Lack of Thought That Counts: Ethical Decision Making in Dual Relationships

Who we are:

Curt Widhalm, LMFT

Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com

Katie Vernoy, LMFT

Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com

A Quick Note:

Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.

Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.

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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):

Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).

… 0:00
(Opening Advertisement)

Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm, and Katie Vernoy.

Curt Widhalm 0:15
Welcome back modern therapists, this is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm, with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about things that go on in our field, the things that we do as therapists, the lines that kind of come up in the differing professions. And we are sparked by a couple of recent interactions that Katie and I have had; one was on a recent podcast that we have that got a little bit into kind of some of the differences between coaching and therapy. We’ve also done a podcast on this years ago. And we’ll link to that in our show notes. I think that I have at least moved a little bit in some of where my opinions are on the utility of coaching in that. I think that a lot of the points that I made in that episode about kind of the legalities and things in the structure of it still very much hold true. But I have found that with, where coaching and therapy line up there some coaches that I refer to sometimes for some very specific kind of adjunctive work, but we want to kind of revisit this, like, where are the differences between the two professions? How do they work? What are the opinions on kind of where things are? And I’m also gonna let you kind of share your interactions here as well around kind of this, especially as our resident therapist slash coach.

Curt Widhalm 1:45
Well, I think the first thing that I want to talk about is I feel like the perspective on coaching has by and large shifted in the therapy world. I think there’s a lot of therapists who have become coaches. We’ve had some of our friends on the podcast willing to some of their episodes who help therapists become coaches. In preparing for this episode, I watched a video that Katie Reid put out about the differences between coaching and therapy. I think there’s so many of us at this point who are doing coaching, at least in some small part, that I feel like there’s a shift in how we perceive the acceptability of it. However, I, in our, our Facebook group, the Modern Therapist Group, I put out a request, I have a client that needed some relationship support, and might be looking at a therapist, might be looking at a coach, but there was some elements around it that suggested coaching might be the right thing, especially given, you know, whether it’s a bicoastal situation, or different things where the regulations that therapists have would make it that they could not have a therapy situation or traditional therapy situation. And I got some, I got somebody that pushed back that was like, why are you asking for a coach. I was like, wow, I am asking for a coach and a whole group of therapists. So, I want somebody that knows the difference and has some skills that potentially they can bring along. But I need the flexibility, the lack of regulation, the specificity of coaching for this particular referral. And so it did it sparked that for me again, I’m like, Am I just in kind of this bubble where, you know, therapists are saying like, yeah, coaching is great, or, or has it actually shifted? What’s your experience of that?

Curt Widhalm 3:33
I think that I’m reluctant to give a blanket statement on on this. And I’ll tell you why is because I think that there, like I mentioned at the top of the episode here is I think there are coaches that really work well with therapists in being able to help my clients be able to generalize some of the skills that we’re working on. And I fully recognize that I’m a lot more of a directive therapist, and I do a lot of coaching type things within the therapeutic relationship that I have with some of my clients. So, I find some of the lines in the sand differentiations kind of strangely odd because, at least in the way that I’m practicing, there’s not a ton of difference a lot of times between what coaches claimed that they do and what I’m doing as a therapist. And so I kind of start with maybe these broader arguments that sometimes the way that coaches represent the therapy industry is just kind of built on this straw man of like, you go and you talk about things forever and about things that show up in your past and you are aiming for healing, where coaches swoop in and we help you get shit done. And I think that there’s a lot of therapists that you’re referring to here who are willing to kind of step in and be more directive with clients. And the differentiation between the two is not as large. Now, I still in certain aspects, refer to coaches who might be able to, in more specific environments, take things outside of the office that we’re working on and be able to help people, behaviorally or structurally be able to implement some of the skills that we’re talking about. I mean, as a DBT practice, we do coaching calls with our clients. So there is some of that between session contact. So, I think that therapists have the ability to do coaching. Not all therapists do. And this is part of being able to kind of say, like, Alright, there’s what the field is capable of doing. And here’s what I as an individual practitioner within the field am/are able to do.

Curt Widhalm 5:56
To the point that you made around the straw man and the false differentiation, I’ll put that that way, that some coaches, especially coaches who are not therapists, described therapy. I want to talk to about that just a little bit, because I think that’s important to debunk. Truthfully. Yes, a lot of therapists, especially if someone wants to use their insurance needs to have medical necessity. So, that is a diagnosis. That’s, that’s an assessment. That is something where there is, quote, unquote, something wrong with you. And so many of the ways in which I’ve seen therapists work and therapy move, it’s very strength spaced, there’s a lot of behavioral change, there’s all of these things, there’s still a nod to a diagnosis or medical necessity. But a lot of folks I think, are coming to therapy for higher level things. And so saying that therapy is just working with folks who we might consider quote, unquote, broken versus whole and wonderful, I think is short sighted. I don’t think that that is what therapy is. I think therapy can include medically necessary mental health services that speak to something that’s very deep and troubling, whether it’s trauma, panic, bipolar, you know, some of the things that would hopefully not be touched by most coaches, or at least not coaches without therapy on board. But I think that there’s this element of coaches wanting to to suggest that we’re looking in the past, we’re only working on disorders, that we’re working with the medical model. And I think that that is potentially true for some therapists, but not I think, by and large, what therapy is.

Curt Widhalm 7:45
I agree, and I think that that’s also where in kind of the broader aspects of this episode that one of the things that we’re trying to address here is why some therapists feel the urge to go out and get into coaching. And I think that we sometimes in our own field, even feel the limitations that we’re only allowed to focus on the past. And I don’t think that that’s true at all, you know. I see a number of people who are like, I’m stopping being a therapist, I’m gonna go become a coach, because I want to not just focus on the past, because I want I’m tired of low reimbursement rates, I’m gonna go and start my coaching business. And as they’re describing it, it just seems to me very much like, Well, it sounds like the same steps that you would take to, like, make a private practice therapy practice, like…

Katie Vernoy 8:38
Yeah.

Curt Widhalm 8:39
I recognize you and I live in an area that supports a lot more private pay therapists. This is not true in all parts of the country or the world. But it would be the same exact steps of getting people to pay out of pocket for services that would help them to be able to achieve behavioral goals. So, I’m not entirely always sure that like, just even on a business end, like okay, I’m tired of having a boss that makes me do therapy and clinical notes, I’m gonna go do a coaching thing that also measures people’s outcomes and helps them to be able to get to their goals.

Katie Vernoy 9:16
I think some of it is kind of that mythology around what coaches can charge, what the coaching business looks like. But I think some of it is actually that limitation of the license. I know with some of the interstate compacts and stuff like that there’s a feeling of more flexibility to be able to reach a larger group. But when people are being trained to market their therapy practice through social media, and they’re making a little bit of a buzz and they start getting people from places where they’re not licensed wanting their help, I can understand wanting to find a way towards a coaching practice. And I think coaching practices can include one to one work. And and I agree with you if somebody creates a one to one coaching practice, especially if they’re mostly doing I get with folks within places where they’re licensed, you’re just doing a private pay therapy practice. It just functionally works the same. But I think when you’re when you’re also expanding out to offerings that are for subclinical presentations, for very specific aspects of the problem, when you’re looking at, you know, courses or groups kind of stuff, some of that I think can fit into therapy, but some of it I don’t think really can. Like I don’t know that I would myself, be like, Okay, you’re gonna start therapy. So the first six months, you’re gonna go through this asynchronous course. And then once you complete that, I’ll let you have therapy with me. Like that feels very different. I think there’s there’s structures and coaching that potentially are very different and limiting, I think. Whereas in therapy, like you described, I feel like I can, if I have the right number of therapy clients, and not way too many I can do some of this more directive work, I can do some of the training, the education that I might do for a coaching client, in a very structured tailored way. And then also process how they feel about it and and then also at the end, then maybe switch back to accountability or practical solutions, that might be more of a coach hat. So, I feel like to me, you know, I’ve kind of gone in a couple of different directions. But I think the, the desire to become a coach may be for the kind of the bigger impact, or getting income from the places where you’re actually getting people interested in your work.

… 11:32
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Curt Widhalm 11:32
I want to make sure that we’re not just adding to the pile on on both sides of this as far as what therapy is. And, you know, this is a conversation that we’ve seen ebb and flow throughout the years. And why we’re picking it now just seems to be based on Oh, this is a conversation that seems to be popping up again. I tend to find that a lot of the work that I do, ends up being fairly coaching. At least out of the therapist’s idea of things, or what coaches end up calling, Oh, you’re doing coaching work within your therapy kinds of things. And a lot of times, I have clients who come to me because that’s the style that I work from. And some of this is really framed within having good conversations with your clients ahead of time about how they want to end up working with you. That even though a lot of my practice is working with teens, working with their families, I do end up with a lot of like, therapists who want to work with me, because I have run a pretty successful practice, I have a podcast, people have heard of me, they seem to want my advice, in addition to working on therapeutic issues that go along with this. And a lot of this is the frame that ends up being what the therapeutic relationship is agreed upon, as far as how we end up working together. In our episode with Kelly Campbell, she was talking about kind of like the, okay, there’s the therapeutic end of, you know, how trauma might be worked on. And then there’s what she’s saying that she does with her clients as far as being able to put that into action in the business. And as we were going through that episode, and I was like, but I also tell people to do that, like that is also part of the therapy process. And I have clients who specifically are like, and I want you to tell me how to do these things. So, part of this is also just like, it’s not something that has to be something that is super differentiated, if you’re coming from that therapeutic background. I’ve said since before we’ve started this podcast, so there are a lot of things that coaches do, that therapists can and probably should do in their work that helps to get people to the goals that they’re asking for. I mean, that is, you know, being kind of very outcome driven. But I think that that’s also giving ourselves as a field the the permission to be able to take that step into being able to help people get the thing that they asked for.

Katie Vernoy 14:17
Oh, for sure. I definitely when I was going through that episode listening to it again, I was like, Yeah, this is, this is what I think good therapy can look like. That you have the ability to dive deep, whether it’s in the past or into emotional spaces, you can navigate risk and do all those things. And then you can have some really, you know, practical conversations around coaching and education and and any of the things that a coach might do to make that learning, that insight practical to a day to day basis, right. But, and I want to highlight the point you just made, it has to be within the therapeutic agreement. I had a client that was more processing trauma, there was a lot of stuff it was it was very much more of a traditional old school therapy relationship. And when we moved into something where I took a little bit more of a coaching stance, it, it rang the wrong note completely. And it was something where that would had to be addressed in the relationship. It was something where I had stepped into a space that that client didn’t want, because it wasn’t part of the pre arranged agreement. And so for me, I think when we, when we try to make these distinctions, they’re too general, they’re too, they’re too based on trying to differentiate them as a marketing tool, versus actually trying to understand what’s important to clients and how we show up as helping healing professionals, and what that looks like. Because to me, if someone wants coaching, and they want therapy, oftentimes I tell them like, Yeah, do therapy with me, because I can do both. And, and I think that that is, it’s not for everybody, not everybody loves doing that. Some people like the a different style of therapy than you and I do, but I think that there’s that element of I don’t know that clients really care, but they are definitely getting marketing messages around what is therapy and what is coaching. And I think like you said earlier, I think that that clinicians are taking that in and potentially limiting themselves in what they’re able to do.

Curt Widhalm 16:27
And I think on the coaching end of things, what I see is that while some people come from a very wonderful lived experience background on the coaching side that can speak to some of the more specifics. That no matter how much that I might work with a particular population, there might be people who are able to navigate specific aspects of things from either their coaching experience or lived experience in ways that are better than me. And I don’t fully always get when, from the coaching end I hear yes, a lot of therapists have a lot broader mental health background and coaches in this particular thing, whether it be ADHD, whether it be eating disorder, something like this, that we can speak more to the specifics on that. And in broad terms, sure, yeah, you might be able to do certain aspects of things a lot better. But being able to take an entire field and diminish certain clinicians aspects of also being able to do that stuff, I think is, again, broadly painting a negative about the field of therapy in order to elevate and conflate sometimes what a coach does as being equivalent to a master’s level education and clinical licensure. So I’m giving this kind of a both/and that there are specific aspects that can be done better. But we’ve also experienced and left on our cutting room floor, plenty of non-therapists who are talking about a specific aspect of a field of coaching, of setting up a business where we’re like, we know that they’re using the right vocabulary, and there’s even a good basic understanding of things. But the depth to which they speak about something is lacking. And in any kind of learning or any kind of demonstration of skill, sometimes there’s that: don’t know what they don’t know aspect that I think is made up for by confidence and doubling down on that vocabulary.

Katie Vernoy 18:46
I agree. I think that can happen on on both sides of this. I think that there are therapists that do this as well. But I do believe that there is a preference for lived experience more so in the coaching arena, and, and the training and all of those things where they can get some right vocabulary and be able to talk about things very in in a very engaging way. Oftentimes, there’s you know, folks that become successful, there’s a lot of good marketing. Because it’s, I find it harder to market a coaching practice than a therapy practice myself just because there is that element of coaching where it needs to be so, so small, so defined, the problem needs to be so clear that I like the freedom of having a broader therapy practice. But, but to me, when we’re looking at the coaches who don’t know what they don’t know, a lot of that comes from, whether it’s master’s or doctoral level training that we have as clinicians, and some of it comes from building on that platform and doubling down. So I don’t know that I said anything different there. But I, I wanted to also speak to the other side where I, I see therapists who talk about something that might be more appropriate for a coach. And they also don’t know what they don’t know, right. And so there’s that element, I see it mostly in working like with executives, or working with career stuff, we have some episodes on that, I’ll put that in the show notes. But there’s folks who will talk broadly about some stuff that they don’t have any lived experience, that they don’t have any real understanding of the nuance of it. And I think that that therapists can have that same problem. And so and so I think with coaches there, it feels like they market themselves more specifically for the exact specific problem they’re solving. And so hopefully, they actually do have the knowledge around the non therapy topics that they’re they’re putting out there.

… 20:53
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Curt Widhalm 20:54
I think that that’s what I was referring to earlier is like, when I make these referrals, it is for something that’s very specific. It might be, you know, hey, you need to go and talk with somebody in this field in order to get your resume more crafted towards the specifics of this. That is something that there’s this space for both. And it’s not always an either/or kind of thing. But I want to turn this conversation back again to like, why we see so many people making this like investment into becoming a therapist as far as their education. And what the attraction is to go and be a coach. Because, again, to me, this just seems like you can do both. Like there’s, you know, people who are maybe in agencies that are in insurance based practices that really have this highlight on medical necessity kinds of things, but to be able to expand services to having that wonderful therapeutic agreement on how you’re working to be able to make that shift in your practice, both are available. I know that in our previous episode, many years ago that we had talked about kind of this allure to practice across state lines or to skirt around some of the licensing requirements. It is expensive to continue to become a therapist. It is an ongoing investment when it comes to continuing education. But operating a business costs the same; expanding your knowledge in specific areas, even if you’re a business coach about things, staying up on business trends is going to change. Do you see a difference between really the two? Are these just costs of doing business as I’m framing it? Or is there actual like outside of some licensing costs that much of a difference?

Katie Vernoy 22:53
Well, you’re describing a one to one coaching practice, in the way that you’re looking at it. And I think that there’s different costs, or there were different costs, before the pandemic because most therapy was in person. And now coaching and therapy are both, I think, pretty integrated into the online space. And so to me, it is as inexpensive and as broad reaching within your licensed areas to become a therapist as it is to become a coach. I think the the real shift when someone is becoming a coach so that they can practice across state lines or don’t have to take insurance or whatever, I agree. That’s basically the same as a private pay practice, you’re going to do the same work, except you’re going to have to get even more refined in what you’re at what you’re able to do as a coach because people don’t hire coaches for broad mental health concerns, and I just don’t feel like I’m doing my life, right. They hire a coach because they are afraid of public speaking. Right? And so that’s a very specific need. Because usually it’s a it’s a specific program or a series of sessions or those types of things. What the freedom of coaching really allows, as I had mentioned before is the the other pieces, you know. And I’m thinking we have an episode coming out with Melvin Varghese talking about being able to do a podcast and courses and you know, having these other pieces. I think you can do those things as a therapist, I think a lot of therapists find it very challenging to to navigate having that as part of their therapy practice because the relationships you have with your clients are different, the confidentiality isn’t required. You can hold it. You can be friends with your clients. I’m friends with coaching clients. I can go and spend a day with them and have a drink with them, right and do a strategy session. Like there’s very different relationships and so for some therapists, it feels very clean. This is my therapy practice, and over here is my coaching and consulting and it has all of this other freedom and different things that I can be very particular with. I find the limitations in that first off is that, you know, especially if you’re doing one to one coaching, it’s the same business, like you said. But it’s also something where I feel like I can’t, well, as a, as a coach, I can’t dig deeper, I can’t do some of the therapeutic work and I need to refer to a clinician for the things that are mental mental health needs and medical necessity. As a therapist, I can’t, I can’t easily connect them to my network and claim them in public and support their businesses or whatever it is. And so there are some differences there in how we show up that I think we may want both of; and I think that’s kind of where I’ve landed, as I like to have both of those types of relationships. I think that in coaching, there may be a little bit more freedom to do some of these other types of services. And we can sell products and services to our clients as coaches. Where that’s pretty ethically confusing, I’m not going to say questionable, but confusing as a therapist. So, I do think that there’s some differences. And I think that the differences feel like, I kind of I kind of have gotten to the place I know it when I see it, or I feel it when I feel it, you know. In looking at this kind of what you’re positing around, therapists can really do a lot of what coaches do. What does that look like as far as like creating a therapeutic course for your clients? Or having a book or different things where what what can you actually bring into the therapeutic relationship, obviously, with that conversation with the the open discussion and agreement on what the therapeutic relationship looks like. But, but how much of this coachee stuff can you actually bring into the therapy relationship?

Curt Widhalm 27:02
I’m looking at how a lot of coaches describe therapy as helping the dysfunctional become functional.

Katie Vernoy 27:10
Yeah.

Curt Widhalm 27:11
And holding that with the space of therapists that work with the worried well, or something like that, that is really kind of the gray area that we’re talking about of working here. And I think it comes down to answer your question, as far as for those clients that might come into that worried well, or that gray area, a lot of this comes down to informed consent and being able to make the decisions to opt into these things. And I wonder how much of this is also just very generational. That, you know, there are, you know, my parents generation that might still whisper link to it, you know, that they’re going to therapy, as opposed to, you know, some of the teens that I work with that are like, oh, yeah, I told everybody about exactly what we talked about in therapy. And so…

Katie Vernoy 28:01
I did a Reel afterwards.

Curt Widhalm 28:04
Yeah. So, I think that, you know, some of this is trying to take very broad swaths of the human condition and trying to create unifying sets of rules for them when it’s really a lot more nuanced. And for all of the ethical discussions that we have around this that come back down to: what is the informed consent, what is the options that clients have into this, and being clear about how we work so that way clients who do fall in this gray area can make the best and most informed decisions for themselves. It’s not us necessarily saying, This is what you need and have to do that is kind of the broad strokes of the stereotype of coaches. But there are ways that we as therapists can adopt some of that, which is one of the options of our treatment is for me to give you very specific tasks to do to be able to help you reach your goals. Is that a way that you want to move forward? Now, that is sometimes what I think coaching clients agree to. I think it’s sometimes what therapy clients agree to. And in both cases, those clients may either find tremendous benefit in that, or they may find no, this isn’t actually what I want, after all.

Katie Vernoy 29:27
Yeah.

Curt Widhalm 29:27
And so I think part of what the allure to coaching has to do for a lot of therapists is not needing to go through what all of the risks and benefits are of these. Good coaches will do that anyway. Hey, the benefit of this is. And so again, I come back to the kind of my like, you can do both. You don’t need to give the therapy field up in order to become a coach.

Katie Vernoy 29:56
The specific thing I was thinking about is the the desire to have a, you know, recurrent revenue, you know, kind of passive income, those types of things. And some of that can be a book, some of it can be a course, some of it can be some of these other things. And we talked about this actually, it was in a Patreon version of our dual relationships, conversation. But it does feel different to say, hey, therapy client, here is my coaching course, I think you would benefit from it. And, and so I think those things are more difficult from a therapists seat. Whereas with a coaching seat, I feel like I can say, here are all of the things and this is what you signed up for. And it’s, it’s a bit more structured, but as I’m hearing you talk, I feel like there’s really a lot more creativity that can happen for therapists, as long as they’re doing that kind of ethical and clinical consideration. And obviously, legal consideration as well, you know, you can’t just practice anywhere, you got to figure this stuff out. But I think that there’s that if we, if we really look at it, and we can get creative, and make sure that we’re getting true informed consent, we’re really looking at how all of this will impact our clients, I think we can bring, we can bring stuff from the coaching side, or bring it back from the coaching side, I think about all the coaching the coping skills and all the stuff that coaches now are claiming, or there’s, I think we can bring those back into our practices. But, but I grew up you know, clinically in as a therapist, also helping people get rent and, you know, doing a lot of logistical stuff. So, I feel like it’s very, this is very organic for me, but I think folks that are a little bit too much kind of this is what therapy is may or may feel very troubled by the idea of of pulling in all of this other stuff into their therapeutic relationship. So, there may be therapists and coaches who are different, but I think some of those lines around what therapy is and what coaching is, those are not as not as easy to lay out because there are such different therapists and coaches.

Curt Widhalm 32:07
We would love to hear your thoughts on this. You can join our Facebook group, The Modern Therapists Group to continue on with this conversation or follow us on our social media and leave comments and engage with us there. You can find our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com and until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm Katie Vernoy.

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