How Much is Too Much? Thoughts on therapists being too branded, niched, and political
Curt and Katie chat about the delicate balance between authenticity and influence in therapy, with a focus on avoiding bias and discrimination while still being real people. We also navigate the challenges of political discussions in therapy, emphasizing the need to balance political awareness with client needs and goals.
Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.Transcript
In this podcast episode we explore the risks of bringing too much of your own beliefs into your work as a therapist
We have been rethinking the conversations we’ve had about blank slate and the Brand Called You. We look at the risks of being too branded or niched, or too political. We also talk about what might be more beneficial for clients, without losing the work toward authenticity and real connections as therapists.
Do therapists bring too much of themselves into their work?
“When people get these really strong niches or brands, or whatever you want to call it, and they have a very particular type of outcome that they typically get, and they’re trying to grow their audiences, and they’re trying to get more and more folks into the space – Is there an influence that is happening, that is not healthy, that is not therapeutic, that is not in the best interest of the client? And so to me, I get concerned that the ‘Brand Called You’ taken too far, is creating a practice of discipleship.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Curt and Katie did a CE presentation and then an episode called the Brand Called You, which talks about how to create personal branding as a therapist to refine who seeks you out for therapy
- When you bring yourself into the therapy room, you want to assess for bias and discrimination
- If you’ve advertised a specific type of treatment or, especially, a specific type of outcome, you may be unduly influencing clients who may not know if that outcome is right for them
How can therapists be “political” without just talking politics or inappropriately influencing their clients?
“There are still systemic issues that affect one client or another and being able to confront that is being able to be political in therapy, which is good and very well informed but not necessarily making therapy about politics. And it’s that little nuance which is: which one of those two is actually benefiting the client?” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Therapists can successfully navigate political discussions in therapy to benefit clients.
- It is important to distinguish between political in therapy (systemic pressures, opportunities, access) vs pushing viewpoints (talking about politics, biased)
- Discussions about the limitations of resources or systemic pressures are political
- Conversations about voting for a particular party would be talking politics
- Helping clients to look at things from a different viewpoint may be helpful, but only if you assess your own bias and the client’s readiness
- It can be challenging to be a political therapist, clients may feel uncomfortable or resistant to discussing political issues in therapy
What can therapists do to balance branding and authenticity with effective client care?
- Tailor your client sessions to their needs and perspectives and values
- Consider providing additional referral resources for clients whose goals do not directly align with a therapist’s specialized approach.
- Evaluate whether strongly branding oneself risks prioritizing showing one’s values over directly addressing what clients are asking for in therapy.
- Assess the efficacy of your treatment for the client in front of you.
- Make sure even clients who resonate strongly with a therapist’s approach are empowered to think critically and come to their own conclusions.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:
We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:
How Can Therapists Help Politically Divided Families: An interview with Angela Caldwell, LMFT
Privileged and Biased, An Interview with Jeff Guenther, LPC
Does Your Social Media Make You Look Like a Bad Therapist?
When Doing “No Harm” Isn’t Good Enough: Bringing beneficence to your clients
How Can You Create an Ethical Faith-Based Practice? An Interview with Whitney Owens, LPC
Therapy as a Political Act: An Interview with Dr. Travis Heath
Cultural Humility and White Fatigue: An Interview with Dr. Sonya Lott, Ph.D.
Who we are:
Curt Widhalm, LMFT
Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note:
Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy:
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community:
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:
Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):
Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).
… 0:00
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Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 0:12
Welcome back, modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy, and this is the podcast for therapists about the things that go on in our practices, the things that go on in our field, and the ways that we end up navigating just being therapists. And after our interview with Angela Caldwell, we had a continuing conversation with her where she had made a comment about, you know, I’ve seen a lot of therapists using their therapists chair as kind of a pulpit to talk about whatever is important to the therapist and not necessarily being in the right space for the clients. And Katie and I have been talking about this off air, and decided to take this conversation out there, because one of the things that we have done is through our work, through our podcast library sorts of things, and even workshops, is really encourage people to lean into who you are, lean into being able to attract clients that are more likely going to succeed in working with you. And throughout the years, whenever we’ve done this kind of a workshop or had this kind of a conversation, I’ve had this fear, what if people listen to us too well, and they do this to a point where it becomes all about them? And we wanted to navigate that conversation, maybe clarify some things, talk about how we can still do this in a healthy way, but maybe in ways that this is also not going well. So Katie, what were your kind of initial thoughts on on this topic?
Katie Vernoy 1:55
You’re referencing our Brand Called You workshop/podcast episode/conversation. So I will link to those things in the show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com. I think you’re also talking about when we lean into ourselves and what makes us who we are and how we want to operate as a therapist and kind of protective self care, those types of things. We are potentially making our career more sustainable. We’re working with people who are better aligned, but we also may be working from a place of bias. We might also be working from a place of lack of access or inclusion. We may be discriminating, and we also may be putting undue influence onto our clients based on what we think is best for them or what we think is best for the world. And I, I’ve worried about this quite a bit, but I also come to this more kind of philosophical place of I don’t know that we can completely mitigate this risk of bias or discrimination or those types of things, because we’re human beings, and sometimes we don’t have enough ability or time to do introspection or those types of things. So I’m looking forward to this conversation, because I feel like it’s one that is overdue. It seems like the pendulum has completely swung from blank slate to, I’m gonna go way too far, but influencer, you know, super authentic therapist. And so to me, I feel like there’s a place where we can both be ourselves, be real people, bring ourselves into the room and not go too far into this place of pushing into this is how I work, and this is how you must operate, and this is what you must do, and if you’re my client, then you must believe this. To me, that was one of the things that I started thinking about is when people get these really strong niches or brands, or whatever you want to call it, and they have a very particular type of outcome that they typically get, and they’re trying to grow their audiences, and they’re trying to get more and more folks into the space – Is there an influence that is happening, that is not healthy, that is not therapeutic, that is not in the best interest of the client? And so to me, I get concerned that the brand called you taken too far, is creating a practice of discipleship.
Curt Widhalm 4:40
Anything can turn into a pendulum. We we started our conversations around the pendulum swing away from blank slate sort of stuff, and maybe just with some more maturity over the years, there are, I see, reasons that people can, therapists can utilize that as a tool. Like this is not a prescribed like everybody needs to do it that way. And I think to give younger versions of ourselves the permission to say, this is not the only option for how you practice. This is another way that you can practice in addition to that. And maybe it was just trying to make a name for ourselves or trying to ruffle others in the community that…
Katie Vernoy 5:20
Us what trying to make a name for ourselves ruffle feathers? That’s unheard of.
Curt Widhalm 5:26
And that’s the influence that social media puts on us. We were trying to make a name for ourselves, to get a following on a podcast, kind of thing that we at least saying it out loud, we both are not out there to get every single therapist to listen to all of our podcast episodes. You totally should share us with all of your friends and get them all to listen to all of our but that’s not really our stated goal. Our goal is to have the ongoing conversations, and people who want to join along are welcome and give us their feedback, whatever. But part of being in the crowd and trying to stand out is making more and more of these bigger things.
Katie Vernoy 6:10
There’s that element of this, that there’s a public persona that is pushing a particular outcome and that influences how the practice looks. But then there’s also what ends up happening in the therapy room, even in in spaces with folks who are not influencers. Maybe they’ve got their their social justice policies and all the things that they they want on their website, but then it becomes an active part of their treatment with every client. And I think that’s where I that’s where I go to a place of, okay, there’s this element where we let people know who we are. We have the website, you know, filter them out and do those things. And then there’s also folks who are just seeking therapy and they think you might be a good enough match that may want something a little bit different. And so it’s how much do we filter out the folks who don’t want to do the work that we want to do, and how much do we provide access to folks who just want a therapist and they think that you would be good enough, and you take their insurance, or you have a fee that they want to pay, or whatever it is. I think there’s that element of what is our responsibility and how far are we going in trying to refine our caseload to that ideal, perfect client every single time.
Curt Widhalm 7:35
I want to expand on both of the points that you’re bringing up here, so I’m going to start with the outcomes one. Because part of advertising or stating things in this way is it doesn’t necessarily come across as a way for clients to get to their own outcomes. It’s kind of advertising that this is the only outcome that I practice, and it doesn’t necessarily lend space to this is amongst the options that we can arrive at. But it’s it’s kind of a guaranteed outcome sort of thing. Some people are going to want the therapists who do the DEI statements as part of their work, the social justice issues, kinds of things. Some people are going to want the Christian therapists who advertise themselves in that way. And I, I still firmly and strongly believe that the brand called you sort of stuff should encourage people to describe how it is to work with them.
Katie Vernoy 8:46
Yes.
Curt Widhalm 8:48
The part of this that I am wanting to pull that pendulum back a little bit is that these are possibilities of things that we can do in our work, but it’s not the only way that we do things.
Katie Vernoy 9:04
My sense of of what I believe the responsibility of a therapist who has that specialty might hold to, is, if I’m going to have a strong brand, a strong niche, I need to, in my mind, in my opinion, have the ability to assess is this person the right fit? Is this person, do they have other options? Are there things that I should be aware of because they’re in the same field? The problem is this: It’s the presenting problem that I want to be aware of and not so focused on the specific outcome, or there’s a specific brand of treatment. So if we look at that, I think part of it is getting so niched down, so focused, so the message so refined that it’s it’s limiting to one solution. And I feel like that’s the part that I get worried about, is that folks get pulled into these situations where the person may be totally upfront about what they do, but they’re not being exposed to the other options. I think it’s I’m saying the same thing that you were saying before, but I feel like there’s this element of trying to say what should be done instead, instead, which is, as a clinician, we can have very strong way that we work, but we can’t get so down the path that we don’t have the ability to assess and provide other resources and other options.
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Curt Widhalm 10:36
And I think part of what’s missing in therapists who present this way, or some of the client stories that we see when they’re either firing therapists because they’re they’re not giving some of these other options. One of the crucial things that is missing in all of this is evaluating if it’s actually effective for the client. Because there are situations, and as this episode is airing, I’m sure that a lot of people are having lots of clients talk about politics and elections, at least here in the US. And having to navigate working with clients who may hold different political beliefs and getting sucked into conversations about politics. Now bear with me, I know a lot of DEI informed clinicians who will also point out the systems of oppression that end up being part of where it leads into discussions about politics. There are things that are political in how one party or the other may evaluate things. But being able to pull that from I’m going to vote for the guy from the blue party, or I’m going to vote for the person from the red party. Things still ends up needing to be able to navigate around well, there are still systemic issues that affect one client or another you and being able to confront that is being able to be political in therapy, which is good and very well informed and but not necessarily making therapy about politics. And it’s that little nuance which is what, which one of those two is actually benefiting the client? And as Angela was talking about in the interview that we did with her, it’s being able to help move that conversation along and listen to people to how they arrived at those viewpoints or those standpoints that actually does help in that therapeutic sense, rather than it just being a entire session talking about what’s in the news cycle.
Katie Vernoy 12:55
When you said being political in therapy versus talking about politics and therapy, I was trying to kind of figure out what that meant, and I’m still grappling with that, the differences that you’re trying to make. But the first one is, if we just sit and talk about the news cycle, unless the client in front of us that feels helpful to them and they want to process their responses that can feel like we’re dictating the conversation, or that we’re not talking about anything that’s actually helpful. Just like, what is the crisis of the day? What are the things? I want to, I want to dig a little deeper into what you mean by being political in therapy, because some folks, I think, have taken that to mean making an impact on this person in front of you to be more informed, to have a more enlightened perspective, which is very biased, each person has their own perspective on that, and so trying to influence your client to think more like you could be categorized as being political in therapy. Now, I want to make sure that we link to Dr. Travis Heath’s episode in the show notes, so I’ll do that. I may even try to make it the throwback episode, because I think it’s such a great episode. But, but I think he talks about some of that so, so we don’t need to replay that ground. But what distinction ae you making around being political in therapy versus pushing your viewpoints or politics onto your client?
Curt Widhalm 14:35
I think it’s it’s becoming harder and harder to take things out of the political climate, in what’s in the news cycle. To be able to really separate out and talking with clients, here’s some of the limitations of resources that you have that affect your mental health. To me, that is talking about systemic pressures, and that is talking about opportunities and access and those kinds of things. That is not talking about politics. It’s talking about things that are political in nature.
Katie Vernoy 15:13
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 15:14
It’s not saying you should vote for one party or another. That’s politics. It’s talking about the everyday impacts out of systems that are larger than just what one person and trying to look at things from a different viewpoint might, you know, how many times have we said on the episode, on the podcast, you can’t CBT your way just out of poverty. Like you’ve eventually got to look at how poverty ends up affecting mental health. To me, those are things that are political and can look at what what is actually available for you to be able to change your situation, to address your mental health issues. What are some of the limitations that you run into on a systemic level? To me, those are political, and it’s being able to look at client stories in the way that Dr. Heath did, that helps to help them navigate that world around them, and see from a different perspective. That, to me, is not about politics, but it’s still very political.
Katie Vernoy 16:20
And it requires a lot of introspection, or it will be very flavored by bias. I think you and I are similar, I think in our belief systems and how we operate in the world. I think we are probably too aligned to make a super interesting podcast, but I think both of us hold the space for other perspectives, and so I’m going to do that right now. When we look at systemic racism and oppression and the systems of oppression, we have clients in the world who will think that that is us pushing our political views on them. And so to me, even in being able to be political, some of our viewpoints are not neutral in the current environment. I would argue they’re true. I mean, I’m not, I’m not saying that they’re not true, that they’re that they’re up for debate even, but I have potentially clients who would see that as being up for debate. And so if I’m pushing into these systems and how these systems impact you, and if I’m looking at systems of oppression or systems of poverty, or those types of things, a client who’s impacted by oppression or poverty or those stressors, might feel relief at at hearing that, and might be able to open up a conversation, or may dismiss it and say, Yeah, I hear you, whatever. Feel relieved that you at least see it, but want to move on to something else, and we can continue the conversation. If I’m looking at someone who sits with a lot of privilege, and I’m talking about these systems of oppression and where their privilege comes in, and challenging them on those things, that is also political. It’s pretty much the same thing, just a reversed role, and that client may not want to do that. I have clients who are absolutely willing and want to do that type of work, looking at their their intersectional identities and how their privilege impacts how they see the world, and I have clients who would not want to do that and would feel very put upon. I don’t even know if that’s not a great word, but they would feel pressured in that conversation and would not be able to engage in it. And so I think even the concept of being a political therapist or being political in therapy needs a lot of assessment. Now there’s lots of conversations we have about how to start those conversations, to determine where folks are in their their development as an anti racist, or any of those things. And so I think those would, those assessments need to be had. But when you’re saying, Let’s not tell somebody how to vote, or let’s not talk about politics like it’s even more nuanced than that, I believe.
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Curt Widhalm 19:24
And what you’re speaking to is well trained therapists can navigate and adjust based on clients who have differing feedback, differing viewpoints, that as you’re talking about extremely different levels of SES statuses and privileges that might come in. And it comes back to the point of being able to ask the clients, is this approach effective? Is this working for you? Are you getting out of therapy what you want? And being able to tailor that to clients, rather than just kind of taking this approach that is all clients must have to think in a way that aligns with my own personal values.
Katie Vernoy 20:08
The argument I’ve heard, and this is more for why folks may not work with particular clients, or do this work in this way, and maybe I’m overstating that part of it, is that it’s not safe as a person in a marginalized identity to have a client not open to doing that type of work, or not open to those types of comments. I think that’s fair. I think it also is something that is a real challenge if we’re trying to figure out how to get more folks into therapy, have access to therapy, but also see all types of folks as therapists and understand different folks more personally, I don’t even know what the right word is. Where, if we are interacting with someone who is different from us, and we’re able to navigate some of these conversations with finesse, not with a hammer, that can improve a lot of the stuff that many progressive therapists and anti racist therapists want to work on. But if it’s something where I I’m coming from a place of protection, and I understand that, it could be that other people need to step up, and that’s fine, but it could be that it’s limiting the impact that some therapists can have.
Curt Widhalm 21:28
The word that’s coming to mind is when it becomes an ultimatum for the client, is where it becomes problematic. And I think rather than just kind of repeating ourselves over and over again, it’s the impact on the client that this has, and the impact on people who may be potentially coming into a practice that this ends up becoming something that is biased, is something that is you have to think this way, rather than it’s here’s how I work. Some of the things that we do in our group practice is we’re evaluating for suicide every single question, every single session. And we’ve had a handful of clients over the years that, especially in working with kids, when we’ve said, Hey, we’re going to talk about suicide, we want to make this into a space where, if you’re ever feeling this way, you know that we’re ready to handle these conversations. And we’ve had some parents bristle over that over the years. Why are you introducing this idea to our kids? And our reasons are it works pretty effectively if 3-4-6, months later, a kid is responding with, hey, remember the first session when you’re talking about people who want to kill themselves? I’m kind of feeling that way. We found it to be more effective to open those conversations. That is how it is to work with us.
Katie Vernoy 22:55
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 22:56
These are the kinds of things that I think you, and I mean in brand called you, is these are aspects that we can help with. This is the personality kinds of aspects that end up really being able to embrace who we are and how we work. We’re going through some office changes in our suite right now, and due to some shuffling of things around, I ended up seeing a client in one of the other therapists offices recently, and I was told, you know, this office doesn’t really suit you. This one, this one looks like it’s more made for Instagram, and that this just doesn’t go with how you casually, just are introducing more ideas. This feels almost a little bit confining in here. When we’re talking about brand, called you kind of stuff, it’s being able to be yourself, but it’s being able to push on the gas pedal when you need to with the clients that are really going to resonate with that, and it’s being able to adapt and change to the clients that still end up in your practice and seeing you anyway.
Katie Vernoy 23:59
So I want to go one step further and talk about the clients who really resonate, and who you stepped on the gas with, all of those things, and they are completely aligned. They love what you’re saying. They want to be just like you. I think we have a responsibility to them as well, to pull back and really, whether it’s strengthen their their ego strength or empower them, or whatever, to come to that conclusion themselves from a place of full awareness. I don’t know if that’s possible. But, but some mechanism I think about the work that I I’ve done with my therapist over many, many years, and I was working in community mental health at the time, I was super burnt out. I was very exhausted, and you know, all the pieces I was asked to resign and didn’t know what to do. But in the back of my head, my my therapist, was continuing to talk about the joys of private practice, and wasn’t saying you should do it, but certainly was, you know, commenting on the wrongness of being in community mental health. And I wonder to this day how much of an impact that it had on where I where I landed. If I was working with a clinician who also had stayed in community mental health and had a small side therapy practice, would I still be in community mental health because of where they sat? I’m happy where I ended up. So I think it worked out for the best. But I recognize that the people around us have a huge impact on what we do, and a therapist sometimes even more so. And and I want to just mark that as as something to consider, as well. As even folks who resonate with us, we need to make sure that they’re not following us without critically assessing if that’s the path they want to be on.
Curt Widhalm 26:06
I think my final point on this is being able to really evaluate if branding yourself in this way or working in this way in therapy is more about showing the importance of your values than it is about what the clients are actually asking for. And I think that we can be involved politically in things. And as I’ve said on this episode, we we can be political in our actions. But when it becomes the point about it being about us, rather than it being about what the clients are actually asking for, that’s where it becomes problematic.
Katie Vernoy 26:53
I want to add on to that point too, because I I was thinking when you were talking about that, when someone is in a in a therapy relationship as a client, with someone who has a very strong political stance or or perspective, or whatever it is, it can be very challenging to voice the opposition, so to speak. It can be as a client, difficult to say, Hey, I hear that, that you believe this, and my my thought process is very different. Now, some clients are great at arguing and doing all this stuff, so I’m not I’m not speaking to every single client needs protection from a strong therapist. But there is that element of, are we not opening conversations? Are we not allowing things in just by being who we are and being who we are publicly? And so as always, we go back to: meet the client where they are, open the space for them to do their own thinking and their own thought processes, make sure the goals are aligned with them and what they want, and if it is somebody that you truly can’t work with because of your own safety or not being able to get to where the client is and try to help them walk through their own thought process, maybe it is important to refer out, but before you do listen to our episode on whether or not it’s discrimination.
Curt Widhalm 28:26
We’d love to hear your feedback on this. You can follow us on our social media, let us know there. Join our Facebook group, the Modern Therapist Group, to continue on the conversations, and you can check our show notes out at mtsgpodcast.com. And until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
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Announcer 28:45
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