What Can Therapists Do About the Loneliness Epidemic?
Curt and Katie chat about loneliness as a presenting problem in therapy. We explore the misconceptions about loneliness and how therapists often go to fix the problem rather than understand the problem. We also look at the clinical considerations, including gender differences, the impact of Covid-19, and the changes in how people socialize. Finally, we identify treatment strategies to support individuals struggling with loneliness.
Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.Transcript
In this podcast episode we talk about how therapists support clients who are lonely
There is a loneliness epidemic that is coming into the therapy room a lot and we’ve heard from clients, colleagues, and friends that the first response is “fix it.” We don’t think that’s the strongest move, so we dive into how therapists can more effectively support individuals who are lonely.
What are misconceptions about loneliness?
“The joy of being more of an existentialist therapist: I just believe that all of us are inherently alone. And so I think I’m more comfortable sitting with loneliness than some folks who see it as ‘uh oh this is negative, this is a bad symptom, we’ve got to fix it’ and not that this is a natural human emotion and a way of being at times that we just need to kind of explore and get a little more comfortable with.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- It is a normal human feeling and doesn’t always need to be fixed
- Loneliness is not always related to major depression
- Loneliness is not the same as isolation, nor is it the same as solitude
What are considerations related to loneliness and socialization?
- The impact of Covid-19 on individuals and on socialization
- The changes in how people socialize in the modern age
- Cognitive distortions when one socializes
- Attachment wounds and differences in how people relate to others
- Gender differences in connection and expectations about roles in relationships
How can a therapist explore with a client their relationship with loneliness?
“There’s a tremendous amount of vulnerability that it takes to be able to go to even lifelong friends and be like, ‘I really just want you to sit and hear me and validate what I’m going through.’ Guys don’t get taught to do that.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Looking at what people need when feeling loneliness
- Exploring how understood and seen one feels within their relationships
- Sorting how one can get their needs met with what is available to them
What are the practical considerations needed to address loneliness?
- Identifying ways to connect with others that fits into time and money parameters
- Going beyond similar interests and how to find people to truly connect with
- Exploring coping skills, rejection sensitivity, and self-confidence to set one up for success
- Looking at how to test new experiences, fail and rebound or succeed and build
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:
We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Recognizing the Epidemic of Loneliness During National Mental Health Awareness Month – NPHIC
Internet-Based Cognitive Behavior Therapy for Loneliness: A Pilot Randomized Controlled Trial – ScienceDirect
The effectiveness of psychological interventions for loneliness: A systematic review and meta-analysis – ScienceDirect
This Man’s Experience Shows How Susceptible Men Are to Severe Loneliness – Men’sHealth
Treating Loneliness: It’s More Than Just Meeting Others Understanding the many different approaches to helping those who are lonely. – Psychology Today
Counselling Strategies for Dealing with the Lonely Client – AIPC Article Library
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:
How Therapists Can Really Help Kids Who Are Being Bullied
Risk Factors for Suicide: What therapists should know when treating teens and adults
Understanding Impostor Syndrome in High Achievers: An Interview with Stevon Lewis, LMFT
Therapy for Executives and Emerging Leaders
Who we are:
Curt Widhalm, LMFT
Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note:
Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy:
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community:
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:
Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):
Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).
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Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhlm, and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 0:15
Welcome back modern therapists, this is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about the things that we do in our practices, the types of clients that we see, things that go on dealing with mental health in the world. And we have decided to take on talking about working with clients on loneliness. And I think that some of this will also apply to our listeners here as well who are therapists themselves, because this is a universal feeling. And we want to help people to deal with this. But I think in shaping this just a little bit, we’re going to talk about when we are working with clients, some of the reasons that people might be talking about loneliness in the ways that they show up in our office, some of the things that we do that are helpful, some of them that we do that are not helpful, sometimes just the order that we do them in might be not helpful. And so I will just kind of start this out with, I know that a lot of the stuff that I read, because of the clients that I’m in, talking about, like the male loneliness epidemic. And the more that I read into this, there’s just a loneliness epidemic in general. And I think it shows up differently for males and females, or, just in general, I don’t want to just make this kind of a binary sort of approach here. But I think that that will help us to be able to kind of separate out some of the specific interventions that we get to towards the end of the episode here. But in general, while we might drift one way or another, we do want to acknowledge that loneliness is going to show up differently for different people. But in our awkward transitions, at the beginning of most episodes, I usually ask Katie, some sort of question at the beginning and say, How do you think that most therapists are responding when clients are saying, I’m really lonely?
Katie Vernoy 2:18
I don’t know necessarily. But my suspicion is one of two ways. Let me solve it. Let’s let’s get you out there, you’re feeling lonely, get get some friends get some social support, I could see the other thing also being true, where let’s just sit with this loneliness and feel the loneliness. And there’s never any practical solutions. It’s just a whole bunch of processing and understanding the loneliness. I’m not thinking that either of those are 100% effective. I think both have a place. But I, I worry that those of us and I’m including myself in this who are problem solvers may blow past the important clinical kind of emotional work around loneliness. And folks who are the more non directive therapists will get mired down in loneliness, and the root of loneliness, and all the past trauma and all of the horrible things that mean that you’re lonely today.
Curt Widhalm 3:23
I think most clients who have talked with me about working with other therapists, and some of the stuff that I read online, as far as people’s experience with therapy is that a lot of the advice giving or the behavioral activation that is being given to people in this situation is go and find groups, go volunteer, go be around other people to just kind of not be holed up in your living quarters to, you know, just go be around other people. Like there’s this really practical advice that is trying to address the fact that loneliness equals isolation. But that’s not necessarily what those two terms mean. And I mean, I’ve experienced plenty of times in my life, where I’m surrounded by people and still don’t feel a connection with anybody and feel very lonely even being around others. So, I think one of our first mistakes is conflating the terms isolated versus lonely.
Curt Widhalm 4:26
I agree. And I think the thing that you’re talking about as well with the get out, do stuff, find social support. That sounds like treating depression.
Curt Widhalm 4:39
Yes. And so this you’re leading into one of the other things that can often be attributed to here is that I will say from the very beginning, loneliness is a normal feeling. And it is something that depending on, you know, what your background is, you know, if you’re a very extroverted person you might feel lonely after a rainy afternoon where you’re not allowed to, like, go out and be around other people. Loneliness is, can be a temporary feeling. I think a lot more of where we’re focusing this episode on is kind of a chronic feeling of loneliness. But it is a normal human feeling that we, as professionals, need to be careful that we’re not looking at this as just kind of this one directional, like loneliness is caused by something like major depressive episode or something like that. Both of those can be there, but they’re not necessarily one leads to the other. Because loneliness can sometimes lead to major depressive episodes. And it can be bi directional. So good call there.
Katie Vernoy 5:42
Yeah, yeah, I, as you were talking, I was thinking about, this is what the joy is of being more of an existentialist therapist, I just believe that all of us are inherently alone. And so I think I’m more comfortable sitting with loneliness than some folks who see it as: uh oh, negative, this is a bad symptom, we’ve got to fix it. And not that this is a natural human emotion and a way of being at times that we just need to kind of explore and get a little more comfortable with.
Curt Widhalm 6:14
And the wonderful philosophical teachings that come from The Big Lebowski is that the way that they talk about nihilism and about like the nihilist’s say that there is nothing to fear, really is a different interpretation, then there’s nothing to fear.
Katie Vernoy 6:35
Or, I fear nothing.
Curt Widhalm 6:36
Join us every week for references to 30 year old movies. But in the meantime, a lot of the research I have found that I really like comes from Anton Käll, and a couple of articles that we’ll put in our show notes over mtsgpodcast.com, gets into a lot of kind of the history of round research around loneliness that some of the really big stuff started coming out in the early 80s on this stuff. It does speak to how the impact of COVID is affecting a lot of people further and just kind of the, also the loss of things like the third place in society where there used to be home and work and then the bar that people would go to after work or the public square kinds of things that was just kind of the happenstance place where you’d meet people in you’d hang out. And with the internet being a bigger part of society where you don’t have to have those reasons to go out and hang out with people. There’s just been kind of this disappearance of like, unplanned places where you can just go and hang out and meet people. And now like, if you show up someplace, and you just start talking to strangers, you’re just weird, but…
Katie Vernoy 7:52
Or you’re on, or you’re on social media.
Curt Widhalm 7:54
Right.
Katie Vernoy 7:56
And I’d be interested to see if there are folks who actually get that feeling of the third place from you know, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Reddit, you know, Snapchat, all the all the social media stuff versus the actual in person interactions. I think some people have different social needs, but I would be interested. So I know that’s a side note. So I’ll let you get back to it.
Curt Widhalm 8:18
So one of the meta analyses that comes up in the research is by Masi, Chen, Hawkley, and Cacioppo, and this is from 2011, that looks at there seems to be four broad categories of interventions for clinicians to use when it comes to dealing with loneliness. One of them is providing opportunities for social interaction, but that is not the one that seems to be the most effective as a first level strategy. And what instead needs to be looked at is, while there’s a goal of enhancing social support even that comes after evaluating for: do you have social skills in the first place? And whether or not you do the most effective and probably first steps that we need to look at in working with clients is cognitive restructuring as it pertains to one’s own relationship with isolation, with loneliness, why they feel that they’re there in the first place. And I think that this gets into some of the core reasons why people might be showing up in places around a bunch of other people and still feeling very isolated. Whether these be self limiting beliefs of: nobody’s gonna like me anyway, so why bother? Whether it’s going to be people aren’t going to relate to me, if it is something that’s I don’t know how to relate to others than that can more specifically address some of the social skills aspects. But I’ve found it really fascinating just to be able to start talking with my own clients as far as How do you feel about your own loneliness in the first place? How did we get here, and I think that some of this can lead back to, you know, some very core beliefs or even some very psychodynamic beliefs that have their roots in childhood.
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Katie Vernoy 10:21
I was also thinking about a lot of the attachment trauma and childhood trauma, where there’s also the belief of I, or maybe not belief, but the feeling that I don’t like my own company, I can’t handle being by myself. Because I think there’s also an importance to distinguish loneliness from solitude. And so I think folks who are able to be alone, are able to be in spaces where they’re not connecting to folks and feel okay, that’s not loneliness, that solitude that’s, you know, or maybe not when you’re around people. But that’s, that’s a different feeling, and not what we’re talking about here. And I’ve definitely had clients where they’re like, I was, I was comfortable being with myself, with keeping myself company today. And so I think, really understanding why someone is lonely or what, you know, contributing to the feelings of loneliness, I think are so important. So, we start with that. Is that what you’re saying is starting with like, what do you feel is leading you to this feeling of loneliness?
Curt Widhalm 11:29
And some people might have the insight into it or not. And I think that this is where it starts to tease out how loneliness ends up shifting based on whether it’d be kind of a male loneliness, or whether it be anybody else’s loneliness. I’m seeing more and more research emerging around male loneliness kinds of things. And maybe it’s just because this is the people in my practice, and but it seems to be that a lot of the ways that men in particular are socialized growing up to needing to be providers to their families sooner, being held to not being able to express emotions in ways that are the ways that we teach female presenting members of our society that can be more socially emotional in their relationships. I mean, if you think of any of your guy friends around their guy friends, you’re going to see them engaging in different relationships than some of the gal friends who might be out with their friends, or even just the ways that you can picture them talking to each other on the phone. Males in particular tends to not be expressive in labeling their emotions, and to expect them to do that in a way that is typically assigned to some of the female members of our society ends up being something where it further becomes invalidating to: Well, I’ve tried to express this, the people who, you know, I told I’m sad, or I’m worldly, just didn’t know how to respond to a guy saying this. And they jumped into problem solving things. But if you picture you know, guys in how they relate with their buddies, a lot of it is just kind of non linear. It’s not like a feelings based thing. It’s more of feeling understood just in ways of expressing emotion, such as being at a sporting events where you’re able to jump and share into the moment when your favorite team scores the big score. Like there’s kind of an in the moment emotionality that helps to feel connected in those situations, that isn’t expressed in a way that is, hey, I’m feeling like, I really enjoy being around you that just gets kind of diminished or brushed over or pass off as being kind of an uncomfortable vulnerability.
Katie Vernoy 13:56
With the male clients that I see, I do hear that quite a bit, that there’s not a space for them to really talk about their more inner world. You know, whether it’s a partner, female or otherwise, that doesn’t expect them to or, or feels impatient to listen to the man talking about their inner world, their worries, their pains, their concerns, their needs, or if it’s weaponized in a way where they it’s used against them or or those types of things. When I try to talk about supportive male friends, they talk exactly like you do about that this is something where you know, guys don’t do that. And there’s different pathways to it. And so, I feel like there’s there’s certainly a male loneliness that makes a lot of sense. I think there’s the loneliness of, you know, kind of folks who are very, you know, like the attachment trauma folks who can’t, they don’t have value unless they’re in a relationship, they feel scared of being alone without a relationship. I remember some of my loneliest times were being in groups of people celebrating things that I was never gonna be able to celebrate, or, or even in leadership. I know, before we hit record, you were talking about kind of the group practice owner experience. I certainly as a director, I felt very isolated, very alone, that no one understood my experience and all of that, and there wasn’t anybody to talk to. And so I think there’s kind of practical contributing factors. I think there’s societal contributing factors. I think there’s also kind of emotional trauma history that kind of contributing factors. Where do we go from there? When we’ve kind of sat with that, we’ve talked through it, we’ve, we’ve worked it, we’ve processed it, we’ve grieved it, whatever it is, like, what are the what are then the next steps that seemed more impactful?
Curt Widhalm 15:54
So getting to the place of that understanding of the relationship with loneliness. So when you’re talking about the guys don’t do that kind of responses from clients, the opportunity is right there to be like, what is it that you want in those moments? Like when you’re there with your buddies, you’re watching football, you’re playing poker, you’re doing work on a car, or you’re walking on the beach? I don’t know, whatever it is that you guys do with each other. It’s like, when when you’re there, and you’re wanting to express something, it’s not what are the results that you want, but it’s what do you internally want in that moment. And it’s oftentimes it comes down to, I want to feel understood, I want somebody to empathize with what I’m going through, maybe offer some advice at the end. But to really, I want to be seen for where I’m at, in my particular moment. And there’s a tremendous amount of vulnerability that it takes to be able to go to even lifelong friends and be like, I really just want you to sit and hear me and validate what I’m going through. Guys don’t get taught to do that. I think we’re doing a little bit more towards that in society. But it’s, and I think that this is also something where, when I hear from guys, when they do express this to their dating partners, so they do express this to some of the female friends in their lives is that’s where they are looking for, I want to be validated as a person, I want to be able to look at the things that I’m doing and experiencing as being real. But oftentimes, even that gets shoved away by it being not in the way that guys typically express these feelings. And that’s why those in the moments, you know, sports team scores, were able to give high fives and chest bump and do manly grunting kinds of things that is just like, okay, all of the pretenses in those moments go down. So we can be kind of barbaric in how we express feelings. But what it is, is, I’m in a moment with you at the same time. And we’re experiencing something together. But outside of, you know, seasonal sports events or something like that. It’s really, really hard to get that, especially when we’re not around other people that we believe to have the same experiences as us.
Katie Vernoy 18:29
Yeah, yeah, I’m reflecting on you know, there’s generational differences with that, there’s cultural differences with that. So I think we’re, we’re speaking broadly here, everyone, we’re not trying to disclude anybody. But I think that I think that there is this element of sorting out how do we get our needs met with what is available to us? And how do we identify what that is, and I think that feeling of being heard and understood and seen, I think really is a good antidote to loneliness. It’s not always available. And so we have to be aware of that. But I think it is a really powerful thing to share with other people. And that requires vulnerability that requires a willingness to show yourself to be available to be seen and heard, and, and joined together with.
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Curt Widhalm 19:22
When we talk about the pressures that anybody faces by needing to go and be at work, and then come home and be responsible for house chores, kids, child rearing sorts of things that missed…
Katie Vernoy 19:37
All the stuff.
Curt Widhalm 19:37
… all the stuff that misses the opportunities and the time to be able to go and connect with others, adds a further isolation aspects to this, that in conjunction with the loneliness is now there’s no time or there’s no money to go out and do things because it’s very expensive to go to big ticket events all of the time, or it takes a lot of needing to plan and coordinate with other people who have incredibly busy schedules in order to go and get these needs met in a way that historically has been there. And so being able to say, like, Hey, I’m really busy, and I just want to hang out and be around people who are kind of like me in a way that I know that they have a shared relationship, or shared relationship with their life, not even just being able to have to express that. But just like, I’m around other people like me. And I think that jumping to, you know, just sending our clients out to Oh, you really liked dogs, you should go volunteer at an animal shelter where other people who like dogs are also there. Kind of misses that intermediate factor that is what the relationship is just beyond like, Hey, I, I guess I like dogs. But like, you know, there’s people who really like dogs that have a different relationship with dogs than I do. So it kind of bypasses that, like first part of like, what is it that I’m trying to connect with beyond just like, here’s a singular interest that I can find on meetup or something like that.
Katie Vernoy 21:20
I think there’s, there’s that element of being a cookie cutter response to a much more complex problem. I also feel like it, it doesn’t adequately address, the trust issues, the self confidence issues. I mean, I think that there’s another element to this, which is maybe going to that dog shelter is exactly right. But the person doesn’t have the capacity to do it. And so I’ve, you know, with some of the clients I’ve worked with, I’ve talked about what’s motivating, how do you show up? Can you test it out, you know, those types of things. And, you know, even certain levels of desensitization, you know, if it’s something they’ve chosen, but they feel like, Well, nobody’s going to like me, or I’m going to be rejected, you know, there’s the, you know, it’s kind of it’s, it’s, in some ways better to be lonely than actively dismissed or rejected.
Curt Widhalm 22:13
No, I’m glad that you’re bringing up rejection, because one of the things that does show up in the literature over and over again, is loneliness is a byproduct of social rejection sensitivity or rejection sensitivity. That if I’m going to go out and make an attempt and fail at it, that this is a protective mechanism for not going out and reinforcing my own beliefs about myself, in addition to having the rejection happen. So that is another very rich area to explore with clients is just the belief in their ability to go out and take chances and rebound from them as a interpersonal factor that goes beyond just kind of like, here’s how you go out and meet people. It’s more of that psychological factor of being able to respond and to be able to dust themselves off and try again, or be able to even reframe, like, well, what parts of going out, were successful in being able to connect with others.
Katie Vernoy 23:23
It can be a very painful process, I think, especially for folks who have been traditionally marginalized, or have been bullied, or who have been rejected consistently, or who are more socially awkward. And I think we want to honor that it’s not something that’s easily solved. And so the pre work, or maybe the work if we want to want to talk about that is really, I think, in a lot of ways more important that relationship to loneliness, relationship to self, understanding yourself in relation to others, your needs, your attachment style, maybe even. Like there’s there’s a lot of things that I think can be very important. And as we’re talking about, I just feel like this, the topic of loneliness is very, very broad. So with with not a ton of time left, and we want to get more into some additional solutions. I just want to acknowledge that there’s, there’s so many different types of loneliness and all of those things that I think that this is really a very important type of work. And it’s not, you know, like step one, step two, step three. I feel like it’s, some of it is just how people are in the world and helping them to get more comfortable in their own skin so they can be in the world.
Curt Widhalm 24:35
You know, one of the things that I’m noticing is we’re both talking through this episode and trying to take this very broad topic and apply it to a lot of people is you were both kind of being like, Okay, here’s where this particular aspect is coming up. And we’re trying to be respectful of all genders, presentation, social abilities, any of this kind of stuff is that there’s also just even the possibility that people are listening to this podcast and going to be let down by this. Because it doesn’t speak to the specific needs and how they relate to their own loneliness.
Katie Vernoy 25:09
Exactly.
Curt Widhalm 25:10
And that’s why it’s such a big piece of being able to start there in our work with clients is: all right, how does loneliness mean to you? Like, I know that that’s a very odd way to ask that question.
Katie Vernoy 25:26
But I don’t know that I will ask it that way, Curt, go for it.
Curt Widhalm 25:30
But there’s even just kind of like a Alright, let’s, let’s get to your specific kind of loneliness, let’s get to what it is that your expectations are, and how those can be specifically met and addressed. So that way, it’s it becomes very personalized, as far as how the treatment and the social suggestions that we might make to go and increase the positive, or the lower the risks of the rejection. So while well intentioned, when we do tell people, hey, go out to the animal shelter, because you’re less likely to be rejected by people who also love animals. All right, we’re trying to get to a place where it’s like, okay, we’re trying to minimize some of the rejection possibilities there. But if you’re going for the wrong intentions, I’ve had plenty of clients go and volunteer someplace, but their intentions are, I want to go there, and I want to date people who are there. Okay, not why other people are there, like that’s moving around way you’re facing some of the possible rejections or the possible ways of like not getting your emotional needs met, because you haven’t come to being able to look at why it is that you’re seeking this out in the first place.
Katie Vernoy 26:55
Another point that’s worth saying, because we’ve talked about kind of starting with the relationship to loneliness, and the contributing factors, working on those, and then moving into increasing social support, you know, whether it’s with affinity groups, people shared lived experience, you know, kind of structured ways to get to know people better, or even desensitization to it, right. So like, we’ve made it sound a little bit linear. And I think that it’s really iterative, at least in my experience, where we we start the conversation about loneliness, and what it means to them and how they’re, what the relationship is to use your words with loneliness, and how they view themselves and their relationship to self and others. And then it starts with the experiments and continuing that conversation, as you get more data when you when you get into more spaces with people who might are more likely to connect with you and meet your needs. And so I think this isn’t something where you have to like, I’m working on myself, and once I’m done working on myself, then I can go out and be with people. And then I won’t be lonely anymore. It’s like no. Again, loneliness is an experience that we have, no matter where we are in our lives. It’s it’s it happens. And this is always a work in progress. And it’s where we’re continuing. You know, life changes, the world changes, we change. And so we’re going to continue to come back to these questions of who am, I how do I relate to the world, myself, others, my experience of loneliness.
Curt Widhalm 28:21
We would love to hear your thoughts on this, you can share your thoughts on our social media, you can join our Facebook group, the Modern Therapist Group to continue on this conversation.
Katie Vernoy 28:34
And try to avoid loneliness because well, we’ll join you in this Facebook group. It’s our square.
Curt Widhalm 28:42
And we’ll put links to a couple of the articles that we looked at in our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com. And until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
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Announcer 28:56
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