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Identifying the Graduate Program for the Career You Want – Special Series Becoming a Therapist: An interview with Eden Lathem

In this new series, Curt and Katie interview graduate students and will follow them on their journey to becoming a therapist. Our final interview is with Eden Lathem, a second-year Marriage and Family Therapy (MFT) student at Lipscomb University in Nashville, Tennessee. Eden shares her path from working in prison education and with individuals with disabilities to finding her passion for systemic thinking and family therapy. She candidly discusses the challenges of grad school, balancing internships, and navigating financial constraints while exploring her future career aspirations. She also talks through how she did due diligence to find the “right” graduate program.

Transcript

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(Show notes provided in collaboration with Otter.ai and ChatGPT.)

An Interview with Eden Lathem

Photo ID: Eden LathamEden Lathem is currently pursuing an MFT internship at Lipscomb University in Nashville, TN. With a background in working with individuals and families with intellectual or developmental disabilities, as well as volunteering in educational settings with individuals experiencing incarceration, Eden brings a unique perspective to therapeutic practice.

Eden’s focus areas include solution-focused therapy, restoration therapy, and emotionally focused individual therapy. They specialize in working with families navigating care for members with disabilities, individuals who have experienced incarceration, and clients dealing with depression, PTSD, anxiety, grief, self-esteem issues, and deconstruction.

In this podcast episode, we meet Eden Lathem, an aspiring therapist

We continue our new series on becoming a therapist, with Eden Lathem, who is a first career professional who has done a lot of due diligence and strategic thinking to plan her trajectory as a therapist and professional.

Eden’s Background and Path to Therapy

  • Eden shares how her experiences in prison education and working with individuals with disabilities shaped her desire to support families and underserved populations.
  • Initially hesitant about becoming a therapist, Eden found her passion for MFT through her commitment to systemic thinking and helping others.
  • She highlights the unique role of MFT in addressing the needs of families with disabled members, a demographic often overlooked.

Grad School Expectations vs. Reality

  • Eden discusses her experience in an in-person, cohort-style program that meets weekly.
  • She was surprised by the program’s emphasis on self-awareness and the “self of the therapist” work, which has become a significant focus.
  • While expecting more hands-on training, she found the program leaned heavily on didactic learning with limited opportunities for shadowing and hands-on therapy practice.

Balancing Dual Internships and Financial Challenges

  • Eden balances two internships: a paid position at a family therapy center and an unpaid internship, navigating the complexities of these experiences.
  • She shares the financial struggles of grad school, reflecting on the challenges of unpaid internships and the economic realities of the helping professions.
  • Eden highlights the need for strategic financial planning and managing responsibilities while pursuing a meaningful career.

Social Justice, Technology, and Ethics in Therapy Grad School

  • Her program integrates diversity and advocacy, with a professor involved in legislative efforts for MFTs.
  • Eden reflects on the tension between the progressive nature of MFT and the conservative religious backdrop of her school.
  • While technology and AI in therapy are briefly mentioned, she notes limited focus on these topics in her program.

Favorite Learning Experiences and Uncertain Future Plans

  • Eden enjoys the variability in therapeutic approaches and the systemic thinking that allows her to view clients’ lives holistically.
  • She appreciates learning to balance emotional processing with solution-focused interventions.
  • Unsure of her post-graduation path, Eden is exploring options that include clinical work, teaching, and even pursuing a Ph.D.
  • She expresses a preference for working in inpatient settings, where stability and structure might align with her goals.

Advice for Prospective Therapy Students

“I think it’s really important to really talk to the professors in the program and see if you can align with what you know they talk about and what the program is all about. That was something that I really did, is that I talked to each of the different programs that I was considering, as well as talk to past students.” – Eden Lathem

  • Eden encourages prospective students to thoroughly research programs by talking to professors and alumni.
  • She stresses the importance of aligning program values with personal goals and considering the broader implications of the chosen education.
  • Her advice emphasizes due diligence in selecting a program that supports future career aspirations.

 

Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:

We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!

instagram: EdenLathem

 

Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:

I Just Graduated, Now What? – Career Advice for New Mental Health Clinicians

Career Trekking with MTSG: Interview with Marissa Esquibel, LMFT

An Incomplete List of Everything Wrong with Therapist Education, An Interview with Diane Gehart, LMFT

Welcome to Therapist Grad School!

Why Therapists Shouldn’t Be Taught Business in Grad School

The Clinical Supervision Crisis for Early Career Therapists: An Interview with Dr. Amy Parks

Agency and School Drama

Topic: Therapist Education

 

3 Things I Wish I Knew Starting Out (blog post)

 

Who we are:

Picture of Curt Widhalm, LMFT, co-host of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide podcast; a nice young man with a glorious beard.Curt Widhalm, LMFT

Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com

Picture of Katie Vernoy, LMFT, co-host of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide podcastKatie Vernoy, LMFT

Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com

A Quick Note:

Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.

Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.

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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:

Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/

Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):

Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).

… 0:00
(Opening Advertisement)

Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.

Curt Widhalm 0:12
Welcome back, modern therapists. This is a Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy, and this is the podcast for therapists about the things that go on in our profession, the people that make it up. And this is another one of our look into grad students lives, interviews that we’ve been doing. This has been a really fun series for us, and our last but not least interview is Eden Latham joining us and rounding out all of the wonderful stories that Katie and I are long past our own grad school experience. So thank you very much for joining us today and spending some time with us.

Eden Lathem 0:52
Yeah, of course.

Katie Vernoy 0:53
So Eden, the question we’ve been asking grad students is, who are you and why did you decide to become a therapist?

Eden Lathem 1:01
I am from Nashville, Tennessee, and I’m in Lipscomb University’s Marriage and Family Therapy program. A little bit about me is that I’m in my second year, which is kind of crazy. It has really flown by. The way that I kind of got into therapy, because when I first started college, I didn’t originally think that I would want to be a therapist. I did my undergrad in psychology, and I always knew that I was like, I want to do something around helping people, but I didn’t specifically know that, like, I wanted to be a therapist. But throughout, like, my undergrad experience, I got involved doing some work in prison education, and that was something that I had a lot of fun doing. I still have been able to TA in grad school, which has been really great. I was able to TA a class two semesters ago, and I’m going to be TAing an Intro to Psychology class this upcoming semester, which I’m excited about. And so I really knew that I enjoyed working with that population as well as I worked with a lot of individuals with disabilities in my undergrad, that’s kind of what I did. I worked at a day program for adults with disabilities. Through that, I realized like there is a lot of lack of care for families that have individuals with disabilities in those families, and so that was something that I kind of became passionate about. Thinking about those two populations. I kind of realized, okay, how can I combine all of this and looking at the different grad programs, because I knew, like doing psychology, I’m probably going to have to go to a grad program. And so through that, I kind of, you know, looked at the LPC route, and then I looked at the MFT route, and I also looked at like psychology master’s program route, and through that, I just kind of decided it seems like marriage and family therapy sounds like a good pathway into working with the populations that I want to work with.

Curt Widhalm 2:56
Thinking back to when you were first joining your grad program, what were some of the expectations that you had about being a therapist, what you were going to get out of your therapist education?

Eden Lathem 3:08
I think I thought that there was going to be, I guess, a little bit more hand holding than there really is. Something that I was kind of surprised about was that we didn’t shadow that many sessions, like at my program, we didn’t shadow any. We watched videos and kind of commented on that, but there wasn’t any kind of like shadowing, or like in person watching of it, which is something that I didn’t really expect. But I guess, like, my expectations going into it was that I would learn a whole lot more about the different theories and, like, how to actually do therapy like I learned the interventions and a lot more of that stuff. But I feel like now that I’m like, seeing clients that has kind of come on more like through the process of actually doing therapy and being in the room, rather than, like, learning about it, which is what I expected, like I had expected that I would learn about how to do the interventions more than going into just doing the interventions and learning through practice, rather than like learning the theory a little bit more.

Katie Vernoy 4:11
Is your program in person, virtual, hybrid, like, where, where did that sit?

Eden Lathem 4:16
Yeah, so we’re in person. It’s cohort style, and we meet one day, eight to 1:30 so it’s a long, long session.

Katie Vernoy 4:27
You were expecting to have more of a hands on in the program experience of, how do you do the therapy, those kinds of things. And it sounds like it was more didactic, and then you really have been learning by doing?

Eden Lathem 4:42
Yeah.

Katie Vernoy 4:43
Have there been other surprises that you’ve seen that you weren’t expecting coming into grad school?

Eden Lathem 4:49
I think that I, coming from a psychology background, I thought that there would be a whole lot more steps to things, because with, like, interventions and with different theories of like ways of doing therapy that you learn. There’s a science to it, but then there’s also, like an art aspect to it, of how you integrate the intervention into who you are. Also we talk a lot about in my program, like the self of the therapist and like being yourself in the therapy space. That was kind of interesting of learning, like, oh, like, I can know all these interventions, and I can know these types of therapy, but the way that I do it will be different than the way that any of my other classmates do it, which has been interesting tosee.

Katie Vernoy 5:32
That’s so cool that you’re doing Person of the Therapist’s work.

Eden Lathem 5:35
Yeah, it’s been really good to do that in my program. And that’s, I think that that’s another big thing too, is that I didn’t expect how important the self of the therapist work would be, but I’m really glad that my program highlights that, because that’s, I mean, personally, I think that that’s where most of the most important work is done. Because you really cannot be as effective as you possibly can without doing that work and without that like self knowledge, of like, what’s my social location and what are the different things that I maybe am not aware of, that I’m doing, that I need to know so that I can be a better therapist.

Curt Widhalm 6:18
What kinds of stuff have you learned about yourself through that process that has really emerged? Like, what’s the essence of Eden as a therapist that’s at a second year grad student at this point?

Eden Lathem 6:30
So one thing about my program is that we do a theory of change paper each semester. And so that paper kind of entails the different models that we use, our assumptions about change, the way we approach cultural diversity, as well as like the self of the therapist. So it’s been cool to see like, how that’s changed over time. And I think what I’ve learned about myself, like through through different classes and like through, like my own therapy work as well, is that sometimes I have a tendency to, like look at solutions more so than, like, being able to process emotions just because, like, certain things about me and like the way that I was raised, like, there’s a big focus on, like, fixing things, so that was something that I really had to, you know, address within myself of like, am I, am I too focused on solutions and not able to really sit with people where they need, you know, to just process and sit with things, especially like with the internship that I’m doing is kind of more focused on, like social work, and so there is a lot of like, needing to address basic needs, and like looking for like tangible, like physical solutions. And so that’s also been a part where I’ve had to navigate that where, like, working in a private practice setting is so different than working in a community mental health setting. And both of those are really important, and I think have helped me grow a lot. But sometimes, like switching, like the different brains that I use for my, my internship brain versus, like, working at my other internship, like the private practice setting versus, like, Community Mental Health. Like, it’s been interesting to have to, like, switch back and forth.

Katie Vernoy 8:11
In putting this together. It sounds like your program is, it is? It’s just one day a week, and you’re taking all of your classes on one day.

Eden Lathem 8:19
Yeah, yeah.

Katie Vernoy 8:20
And then you have two internships.

Eden Lathem 8:22
At my school, they have, like, a family therapy center. All of the students have to do therapy at that family therapy center. And then there’s the opportunity to have a second internship. And so, yes, I have two internships.

Katie Vernoy 8:37
It seems like a very big commitment of time. I’m assuming there’s also a commitment of money. How are you making the decisions and fitting this into your life at this point?

Eden Lathem 8:49
It is difficult, because I’m not sure exactly like how, how it is in every state but in Tennessee, and at least, like in Nashville, in the area that I’m in, there are not a lot of paid internships. The place where I’m at, I think I’m the only student in my cohort who has a paid internship, and it’s still, you know, not that much, I’m sure, compared to what somebody would making just like as a typical therapist. And I think that that you know, is an issue in helping professions is that there’s not paid internships where there are and a lot of other fields of work. But I think definitely for me, at least, like with picking my internship, I wanted one that was paid, so I was willing to put in more time and effort into my internship to be able to get paid for it. So that was kind of a factor for me that played into it, but I know, like for a lot of other people in my cohort, you are spread really thin, because you know you have to pay for where you’re staying, you’ve got to pay for food. You’re also paying for your school, and you’re not getting paid, and you’re putting a lot of time into school and to all of these things, and your internships, and if you’re still trying to work like it is, it’s a lot. It is so much.

… 10:09
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Curt Widhalm 10:11
How do you see that affecting life decisions that you’re making? And also, since you are in a cohort, I’m assuming that you’re you’re you’re fairly familiar with each other’s lives at this point. How do you see that affecting life decisions, as far as in comparison to maybe some of your undergrad friends who went into fields that pay money and have have a life.

Eden Lathem 10:35
I think I have to be a whole lot more, I guess, strategic about how I’m approaching finances, and I think that there’s, I mean, I think I have a lot of anxiety around that, of like, okay, how am I gonna make this work? And, like, thinking forward into the future, of like, I know that I eventually, I will get paid more. But there’s also, like, that fear of like, well, what if? What if it’s still not enough, just based on, like, I don’t know, just the economy is just really rough right now, and I think especially like in helping professions, it’s, it’s difficult, um, especially, like, going into a field trying to figure out, like, Okay, what, what will it look like for me to have, like, an actual paycheck as well?

Katie Vernoy 11:22
It’s been interesting to listen to you, because I think some of the things that Curt and I have been very worried about in grad programs, your program does okay, like the person of the therapist and the self of the therapist work, it sounds like is actually happening, which I don’t think I had that in my program. I don’t know that there’s many programs that do a lot of that. And so it’s really nice to hear. But another thing that a lot of programs don’t include is looking at how to start a business, the state of technology, social justice, you know, those self care for therapists, that kind of stuff. How does your school incorporate that stuff in? Or does it?

Eden Lathem 12:04
What I have been working on like in my program and I’m not I think we do have a professional MFT class coming up, but I haven’t taken it yet, so I’m not sure what that looks like. But we have different diversity classes, and I feel like pretty lucky, because one of our professors is the president of Tennessee AMFT and so he’s talked a lot about, like, you know, going to, like, the Capitol, and kind of advocating for MFTs and like, advocating for the different bills that they’re trying to pass, of, like, making portability of licensure and stuff like that. So I think that that’s really cool to have somebody who’s involved in, like, the law aspect of it as well. But I think social justice, like, there’s with what just happened, like, with like the president and kind of all that stuff, and how that impacts our clients, like, because we had class of the day following the election, and so that was a time where we were kind of reflecting, like, Okay, how, how will we approach this with clients, and also like, what’s our social responsibility as therapists and to, you know, advocate for our clients? That was a that was a good conversation to have, and I’m very glad that, like my school, had that conversation in our class, especially since we’re in Tennessee, and you know, the school that I go to is a Church of Christ school. I’ve picked up on this sometimes there’s some tension between, like, the progressiveness of MFT and the profession and the program, and like, more of the religious aspect of the school and the conservatism of that. It’s it’s interesting, for sure.

Curt Widhalm 13:45
Picking up on part of what Katie talked about, and we’ve been spending a lot of our more recent episodes talking about this. How is technology and artificial intelligence being discussed in any of your classes? If at all?

Eden Lathem 13:58
I feel like the only kind of aspect that we’ve talked about it in is like writing papers, and like making sure that we cite AI, like, when we’re writing our papers, if we do write our papers using AI, like, I’m on social media, and I see that, like, there are different ways to like, use AI to like, help write progress notes. And I’ve just seen that on my own. But I feel like, because it’s so new, my program hasn’t touched on it that much. I think one of the directors mentioned that they had a training on talking about or using AI in therapy and like, with progress notes and like, how it can be helpful. But we didn’t really discuss, like, what that meant for us and like, our learning as students. It was just kind of like a passing comment of like, oh, we went to this conference and talked about this thing, but it wasn’t much of like a conversation beyond that.

Katie Vernoy 14:49
Our concerns are validated, Curt, nobody’s talking about AI in schools. What has been your favorite thing to learn about in grad school so far?

Eden Lathem 15:03
I think there’s a lot. I guess my favorite thing is, like, the variability of it, and learning how there’s different ways that everybody does therapy. Because I guess, like, in my head, I was like, there’s this one way to do therapy, and, like, that’s how it’s done, and if you can’t do that, then, like, it’s bad. But learning that, like, you’re going to be really good for some clients and for other clients, you’re probably not going to be the best fit for them, and that’s okay. I remember, like, specifically, like, from one of my other classmates, like, in supervision, we were talking about how at their specific internship site, like, they’re a younger person, and they weren’t getting many clients because they looked younger, and that’s another aspect of it, too. Like, sometimes you, based on who you are and how you look, you won’t be attractive to some clients. And like, that’s okay, because it’s kind of about, like, finding your niche, and we’ve talked about that a little bit, but I wish that we had kind of discussed that a little bit more.

Curt Widhalm 16:06
As you’re looking at where you’re at, where where you’re going, where do you envision yourself going after graduation? What’s kind of looking forward to the next steps for you here?

Eden Lathem 16:18
I think that I have a lot of uncertainty about that. I go back and forth in a lot of ways, because I have part of me that’s like, I want to integrate and do therapy, but I also want to do other things as well. And I think part of me is, like, afraid that, like, what if I just, like, get sucked into clinical work and that’s like, all I do, and I get burnt out. And I don’t know that’s like, my fear part, like. But there’s also an aspect of, like, I might want to do a PhD, and I might want to see, like, what other opportunities there are. And so thinking about that, I’m like, Well, I don’t want to go directly into like, private practice and build up a client load, and then if I do decide to do my PhD, have to move somewhere else and figure that out. I’m thinking, like, as of right now, what I’m kind of thinking that I’ll do is probably, I don’t know, maybe, like some inpatient work, and kind of seeing what that looks like, because I’m kind of hoping that I could have at least, like, some stability in my schedule, because I appreciate that. And with some inpatient work, it’s more of like a nine to five type of, type of look. But I’m really, I’m really still trying to figure it out, and I’m hoping that as our program progresses and as we get closer to graduation, there’s a little bit more conversation around what to look for in a job.

Katie Vernoy 17:38
So there hasn’t been conversation about what to look for in a job yet?

Eden Lathem 17:42
Not fully. One thing that I know is that you want a W2 and not contracted work because the taxes are more complicated.

… 17:52
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Curt Widhalm 17:56
What are some of your thoughts today about what you would get out of a PhD program.

Eden Lathem 18:02
I’ve had different meetings with different professors because I really want to, like, understand what it’s like, because I feel like there’s a lot of at least for me, I feel like there’s a lot of like, well, what actually is a PhD and what does that actually mean? But I guess, to my understanding, depending on the different degree that you get, it determines, like, what that looks like. Like for like a PsyD you’re mostly doing clinical work, and you also have to pay for it. Different professors have kind of guided away from that, and that was never really something that I wanted to do. But with PhD, like looking at like more so doing more research, and then that could open up the door, like, if you do want to do more teaching. But I feel like for a lot of people, a PhD is not necessary, so it’s something that I’m kind of holding lightly, of like I could do this, but I also want to know what the risk and benefit of it fully is.

Katie Vernoy 18:56
It sounds like there’s been different areas in your life where teaching and helping people in that way was a big draw. So I could understand wanting to incorporate that in. I know Curt has done that with a Master’s, but it just probably depends on the requirements of each school, what you can teach and that kind of stuff.

Eden Lathem 19:13
Yeah, yeah.

Curt Widhalm 19:15
If you’ve thought about this. So it sounds like you’re still weighing a lot of options here. What do you ultimately want to do licensure, five years post licensure, but what is professional life seem like is kind of the end goal for you?

Eden Lathem 19:30
I feel like, originally going in, I was still trying to figure that out, and I still think that I am trying to figure that out. I mean, I feel like, ideally, like I would be able to see clients and I would be able to do some teaching in different areas, whether that’s still like doing like education in prisons or specifically working with like families that have individuals with disabilities. But I think I mean, ideally, I wish I could integrate it all and do all of those things, but I’m not sure exactly what that would look like, and I guess that that’s just part of figuring it out and seeing what, what kind of opportunities arise with those things.

Katie Vernoy 20:14
So I know you’ve been thinking about this since I asked the question earlier, the question of, what’s your favorite thing, if you’ve come up with it, I would love to to hear what your thoughts are.

Eden Lathem 20:24
Some of my favorite things have been the different trainings that we’ve been able to go to. We specifically went to like, a restoration therapy training from Terry Hardgrave, and that was really interesting, because I feel like restoration therapy isn’t widely known, at least, like, with my supervisors. Like people in my class will talk about it, and they’ll be like, Wow, I didn’t know everybody was really into restoration therapy. Like, where did this come from? But it was specifically because we had that day long training, and so that kind of prompted a lot of stuff, and for us to be more interested into that. So that was really interesting. And I’m trying to think of what the training was that we did last year, I believe it was, oh, it was on ethics, and that, I think was really interesting and important, because ethics are such a gray space. I mean, obviously we have ethics, and we need to follow those, and it’s important to know those. But also, there’s also so much complexity, and what that looks like, and how to approach that, because it’ll be different based on each circumstance, as well as one of the other things that I think is just, I mean, the baseline for any MFT program is, like, systemic thinking. Then I think learning about that was really important, of like, you know, taking into account the systemic nature of individuals and people in our society, and just like how widely spread and connected everything is when you really think about it, and it really just opens up the complexity of life and how you view clients, and like how you help clients relate to themselves and the systems that they exist in. And so I think that that has been something that’s been really fun to learn about, as well as complicated and scary in some senses.

Curt Widhalm 22:20
For people who are coming across this episode as a consideration of if they should enter into therapy grad school or not, what kind of advice would you give to people who might be either considering entering in or about to enter into their graduate programs?

Eden Lathem 22:35
I think it’s really important to really talk to the professors in the program and see if you can align with what you know they talk about and what the program is all about. That was something that I really did, is that I talked to each of the different programs that I was considering, as well as, like, talk to past students. Like, what does that look like for them? Because there’s, you know, you’ll learn some from, like the professors and all of that, but also like from the students and like seeing like, what did they learn and what are they hoping to do? So I think in a lot of ways, like, what’s important is just kind of hearing the stories of the different people that have been involved, and kind of take into account, like, Okay, does this make sense for me and make sense for the road that I want to walk down, I guess in some ways.

Katie Vernoy 23:25
I like that. That’s some good due diligence. I think that people should take I don’t know that everyone thinks to do that.

Curt Widhalm 23:31
Well, thank you so much for spending some time with us today, and we look forward to following up with you and seeing how your story continues to progress. And people should totally follow us on our social media, join our Facebook group, the Modern Therapist Group, to continue on with conversations about this series, as well as any of our episodes, and you can find our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com. And until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Eden Latham.

… 24:01
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Announcer 24:01
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