Mental Health Entrepreneurship, An Interview with Lawrence E. Shapiro, PhD
An interview with Lawrence E. Shapiro, Ph.D. about lessons learned through serial entrepreneurship. Curt and Katie talk with Dr. Shapiro about how to identify whether your idea for a product or service is good, the importance of solving a problem, and what business models are strongest for therapists. He also talks with us about why we shouldn’t fall in love with our products, why we shouldn’t expect to make money writing books, and why building apps don’t make sense.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Click here to scroll to the podcast transcript.Transcript
Interview with Lawrence E. Shapiro, PhD
Lawrence E. Shapiro is an internationally known psychologist, recognized for his innovative and practical approach to helping people with mental health problems. Dr Shapiro has written more than 75 books and developed more than 100 therapeutic board and card games. His work has been published in 28 languages.
Dr. Shapiro has developed a broad understanding of mental health problems in various professional positions as a teacher of emotionally disturbed teens, a school psychologist, a Director at the National Children’s Center in Washington D.C., and in private practice in Washington DC and Philadelphia.
Dr. Shapiro is also considered a pioneer in using technology to address mental health problems. He has developed a number of apps for mobile devices, including an award-winning app to help prevent suicide among military personnel. He is the Founder and President of Between Sessions Resources, a company that develops clinical software for therapists and counselors and publishes therapeutic homework that professionals give to their clients to accelerate their growth.
Dr. Shapiro’s books include:
For Parents: How to Raise a Child with a High EQ: A Parents’ Guide to Emotional Intelligence; The Secret Language of Children; The Baby Emergency Handbook
For Kids and Teens: The ADHD Workbook for Kids; I’m Not Bad, I’m Just Mad, Stopping the Pain: A Workbook for Teens Who Cut and Self-Injure
For Adults: Overcoming Depression, The Panic Disorder Workbook, Taking Care of Your Mental Health During the COVID-19 Pandemic
Dr. Shapiro is a frequent media guest, and has appeared on CNN, NPR, The Today Show, and many other national and local outlets.
In this episode we talk about mental health entrepreneurship:
- Shapiro’s forays into entrepreneurship and alternate revenue streams
- The importance of getting used to making mistakes
“Get used to making mistakes.” — Lawrence E. Shapiro, Ph.D.⠀
- The lack of follow through that leave ideas as ideas (and not businesses or products)
- The need to actually be solving a problem, not pursuing an interest
- Finding something that has value to other people
- Writing books and self-publishing
- The goal for self-publishing a book (it’s not the profit)
- A book as a business card
- Strongest business models
- The need for on-going work and learning as an entrepreneur
- Protecting your work (copywriting, registered copywriting, trademarking)
- Ideas are just ideas and may not actually need protecting
- The perspective of improving on what others have done, rather than coming up with a unique idea or doing what has “never been done before”
“Originality is great. But…you really want to be number two…Let somebody else be number one, and just make it better. — Lawrence E. Shapiro, Ph.D
- An iterative process to find your product, incremental innovation
- Leveraging the success of others
- How to learn what to do, following the recipe of what is worked
- Selling a business and moving onto the next idea
- Different places that people can shine – ideas, implementation, marketing
- The benefit of having partners to have different skill sets
- Marketing as building your platform and audience
- Why Dr. Shapiro advocates for email marketing
- The concept of a sales funnel and adding value along the way
- Metrics and data for email marketing
- Content marketing and giving away free stuff
- Lawrence Shapiro’s Goldfish Tank
- Why an app doesn’t make sense – the economics don’t work
- Affiliate relationships – what to look for, what they could include, how to stand out
- Understand them and know how you can help them
- Why you shouldn’t fall in love with your product
- Following the rules of business
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide:
Heard Bookkeeping and Tax
As a therapist, you’re probably too preoccupied with your caseload to want to think about bookkeeping or tax filing. Heard Bookkeeping and Tax is a platform built specifically for therapists that helps you track and improve your practice’s financial health. Regardless of whether you’re a seasoned clinician or are in the first year of your practice, Heard will help you to identify areas for growth and streamline best financial practices for your business.
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Dr. Jennifer Kashani, a licensed clinical psychologist based in Los Angeles, says: Heard has simplified and streamlined bookkeeping and best business practices in a digestible and accessible way. Having the foundation of Heard for my business has made myself and, in turn, my patients feel more solid.
Plans begin at $60 per month and can easily be tailored to fit your business’ financial needs. You can schedule your first consultation at http://www.joinheard.com.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode:
We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Dr. Shapiro’s Contact Information
- Email: DrLawrenceShapiro@gmail.com
- Website: http://www.BetweenSessionsResources.com
- Phone: 203-246-5267
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro on Amazon
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:
Not Your Typical Psychotherapist
Who we are:
Curt Widhalm, LMFT
Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note:
Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy:
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community:
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
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Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits:
Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):
Transcripts do not include advertisements just a reference to the advertising break (as such timing does not account for advertisements).
… 0:00
(Opening Advertisement)
Announcer 0:00
You’re listening to the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm, and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 0:15
Welcome back modern therapists, this is the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide. I’m Curt Widhalm, with Katie Vernoy. And leaning into the entrepreneurial side of those who are inspired to do those kinds of things today, hearing from people who know a thing or two about launching some things. We are joined today by Dr. Lawrence Shapiro from Between Sessions, and he’s gonna help impart some wisdom on taking some ideas from thoughts to products to multibillion dollar success, hopefully, maybe. Alright, thank you very much for joining us, Dr. Shapiro.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 0:51
Well, thanks for having me.
Katie Vernoy 0:53
We are so excited to have you here, you and I’ve had a couple of conversations, and you’ve been a friend to our show, and we just really appreciate you being in our quote unquote, modern therapists community. So the first question we ask everyone is, who are you? And what are you putting out into the world?
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 1:11
Well, I am a child psychologist by training. I’ve been in the business of psychology for many, many years since the 80s, started a game company called Child’s Work Child’s Play, not knowing anything at all about business, or, it was a catalog company, eventually, we were mailing 3 million catalogs a year, and earning 500 company for two years in the 90s. And I, at the time, thought, this is great, you know, I send out catalogs people sent me money, I send them stuff. After about three or four years, it was became somewhat easier than just doing child psychology, as you can imagine. And I saw this is my calling, you know, nobody, you know, phones, me at midnight to complain about their kids or their teens. So from there, I sold the company, that well, this is it, you know, this is all I’ve got, but apparently it wasn’t. So, I started another company, and another company, and Between Sessions is about my fifth or sixth company.
Katie Vernoy 2:20
Wow.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 2:21
Which we’ve had it now for five years, and we’re happy that it’s very successful. And you know, I’m very much an advocate for entrepreneurship in the mental health field, because I think we need it, you know, things are changing all the time, particularly this year. And we need people who are understand mental health, who can contribute their special skills in a little different fashion, because it is very much a business. And, and my passion is always about reaching more people in an effective and, you know, evidence based way. And we need to think out of the box. So I’m happy to share whatever insight I can.
Curt Widhalm 2:59
One of the things that Katie and I have learned through the years is that there’s a lot of mental health professionals who have kind of that entrepreneurial drive and have a lot of ideas. That we see things beyond the ways that we’re taught in the classroom or in the training sites that we go to. Some of them just don’t want to get those calls at midnight from clients. That one of the questions that we asked all of our guests is there’s a lot of mistakes to be made down this pathway. And what are some of the things that you see people kind of getting wrong in these entrepreneurial steps that if we can share with our listeners, hey, here’s some mistakes to avoid based on what other people have done. What kind of advice do you have?
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 3:43
Well, above all get used to making mistakes, because…
Katie Vernoy 3:47
I love it. Yes.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 3:49
There’s nothing wrong with any any entrepreneur, who you know, will tell you the same thing. You got to you have to make mistakes, you can’t possibly not make mistakes. You’re not, you’re doing something wrong if you’re not making mistakes. But but the most important thing, it really is having the passion to do it. I speak to a lot of people, particularly authors who you know, have a book or they want to get out and I used to do workshops on how to publish your self help book. I’ve published about 75 books, through different publishers, some self published, and most of them, I would say almost 100% are good ideas. So there’s they’re worthy and interesting books, but they don’t write them. If you don’t do the work, whatever the work is, you’ve got to do the work. Whether it’s starting a company or making an idea happen, or writing a book. The biggest thing is is you just have to put in the time and and that could be hard for therapists because they don’t have the skill set. Well, you learn the skill set. It’s not it’s not that hard. But you know, setting a goal, deciding, you know, is this something that people want, and then doing it. Of course the biggest thing is you have to be solving a problem, a lot of people start off with an idea. And I talk to people almost every week with some entrepreneurial idea. And they, if they’re not solving a problem, they have an idea, they get feedback from friends and family, oh, I’d like to get, you know, a box every month of, of therapy tools. And but that’s not a problem, that’s, that’s an interest or it’s an idea. So, so start with solving a problem, and then figured out how to do it in the most efficacious way. And then the business usually comes last, you know, there’s various ways to make money. And obviously, that’s an important part of it. But you’ve got to start with, you know, something that has value to other people. And then, you know, business is about somebody buying something, and then if it has value, they’ll buy it, everything else will fall into line.
Katie Vernoy 5:54
I think that’s so interesting, because I think oftentimes, we we have something that we enjoy doing and say, Oh, wouldn’t it be great if I could get paid for doing that. I love putting together therapeutic tools or whatever, right? Like, I think it’s, it’s really important. And I liked the way that you said this, that you understand what problem you’re solving. And you’re passionate about solving it. Because I think if you just identify a problem, but you it’s grudging work, you know, there’s going to be mistakes along the way, there’s going to be challenges. And if you don’t have the passion to kind of carry you through and actually get to implementation. I think that’s hugely problematic. So I really liked that. I guess one of the things that people do, especially therapist is this idea of publishing books. And I know I am guilty, I have like three books between a quarter and probably three quarters written.
Curt Widhalm 6:48
And I’ve written 70 books in my head.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 6:53
I don’t think actually writing. The writing is actually putting things down. But…
Katie Vernoy 6:56
Yeah, you, Curt’s been thinking really hard and working on some sort of magical way to get words from his brain onto a page. But I think, for me, I, I’d love to hear your perspective for therapists, especially because I think there’s a lot that therapists tell their clients over and over, there’s a lot of a lot of problems that therapists solve. And so many people think, okay, I’ll write a book, and that will be the, that will be my side business, and it’ll be glorious. Because the work’s done, and then I can just sit back and reap the profits, which, of course, we know is wrong. But anyway, what do you think the best way is for therapists to get books published?
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 7:37
Self published, there’s no question about it. You know, there, if you had asked me that, you know, five years ago, I would have said, well consider traditional publishing and get an agent, you know, I’ve done that. But now, it’s absolutely self publishing. Because it’s just you anybody can do it. I mean, it’s just a matter of writing the book, and anybody can publish the book. Now, that doesn’t mean, you’re going to make money with that book. And that’s, you know, the self, average self published book sells about 100, 200, 300, copies, period. And when you hear the, if you go, you know, on the internet and look at self publishing sites, they’ll tell you, you can retire and all that, it’s just, you know, the average book, it across all kinds of publishing would be a good seller would be about 5000 copies a year. And that would be again, this year, that’s the first year and then of course, it’s going to go down from there. People don’t go to the Bahamas for selling 5000 books a year, well, maybe they’ll go at once. But that’s about it. So it’s, you know, when you talk about people who are hugely successful, to give you some context, we’re talking about 100,000 books, or more. And it you know, just doesn’t happen. Now, that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t publish a book, there are reasons to publish a book other than making direct income. The main reason is that it’s great. And I would say your book is your best business card, whether you want to be in practice, whether you want to lecture, and there’s a lot better ways to make money than from a book, but a book’s a great place to start. So it’s not going to bring in necessarily direct income, but it’s going to be, leverage you and into some other, it just gives you so much credibility, whatever it is you want to do. And hopefully, that book is about your core passion, your core interest. And that’s where you can leverage into something else. You know, there’s certain things that are just better business ideas, books are not one of them. Apps or apps are not one of them. So, you know, I have having been in business now for 30 plus years. I obviously have my prejudices about what works and what doesn’t work. But a book is a great place to start. If nothing else, a book will give you the discipline of have going from A to Z, seeing that, you know, thing done. And, and learning about what it takes to get something done. So this the same skill set, whether you’re doing a course, whether you’re doing a product, whether you’re starting some kind of an internet company, it’s it’s all the same same skill set. So a book is actually a really, really great place to start, it’s just not going to be, you know, the end of it all. And that’s the other part of it is that entrepreneurship, just like being a therapist, it’s, it’s, there’s not, it’s not like, I’m going to do this, and then I’m going to stop, you don’t stop. That’s, that’s, that’s what you do. You’re an entrepreneur, you take that company, you deal with the problems, maybe you sell the company, you go to a different company, it’s a it’s a journey, and I think people watch Shark Tank too much, you know. And, and, and see, you know, oh my gosh, like this, you have a better sponge, you know, I have a billion dollar, you know, billion dollar company, just, you know, for the most of us, it doesn’t work that way. It’s a learning process, and you have to be in it for the ride.
… 11:04
(Advertisement Break)
Curt Widhalm 11:05
When it Lawrence, first started talking about self published his book, this is the greatest way I felt so inspired, I’m like, oh, I should get this done. And then he kept talking. And I was like, oh, that sounds like a lot of work. Because there’s a lot of steps that I imagine that happen in that whole manufacturing process, whether it’s a book, whether it’s creating a product, or an app, or any of these kinds of things. How do you manufacture those kinds of ideas, and and during what I’m assuming is a lot longer process also be able to kind of protect this idea from other people swooping in and stealing it if they’ve got kind of their process down? Faster? And and better already?
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 11:47
Well, you know, the protection is a question I often get asked. And there’s some very basic principles you can get on the internet. You know, if you want to copyright something, you can copyright any intellectual property, you know, words, drawings, music. And, and putting the copyright note and the year copyright Between Sessions 2020, that gives you some protection. You can register the copyright with the Library of Congress, which gives you more protection. You can trademark a name. Again, you can put the letters TM, that gives you some protection. But normally, you have to file the trademarks at the US government to get full protection. But the truth of the matter is, probably nobody wants your idea. So you can…
Katie Vernoy 12:35
Sorry to say, Curt, nobody wants your idea.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 12:37
You can protect it all you want. If it was if it’s a really good idea, really, really, really, really good idea. Yeah, I think the MySpace, people thought they had a really good idea. And then Facebook came and they had a much better idea. So if they really want it, they’ll find a way how to do it. But most people, you know, ideas just are just ideas. They’re not, they’re very few things that I’ve done, or I’ve seen anyone else done it that need that level of protection. Clearly, if you write something, you want to put the copyright on that written word, because that does give you, you know, if someone they see it on the internet, and it’s your words, was someone else’s copyright, then that’s, that’s not right. But you know, the middle thing to worry about this is so much more in terms of creating that, whatever it is. And then of course marketing, you know, the two basic principles of what am I going to do? I’m gonna write a book and publish it, not hard. Market. That’s another story. So protection is this piece of the puzzle, but it’s not that important.
Katie Vernoy 13:47
To Curt’s point, there is this huge process that you’re going to engage in whether it’s, you know, actually writing a book, going through all the steps, getting it published, you know, figuring out how to do self publishing with Amazon and other odds and ends all of that, or creating a therapeutic product, or identifying some other type of service or something. Like when you’re stepping outside of creating a therapy practice. I think it would be hard to decide, like, what should I create? And then how do I actually go about doing that? So so what advice do you have related to identifying which type of product or service you should create? And then how do you kind of make sure that you’re able to implement it?
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 14:33
Well, a good questions. You know, I think most people I talk to have an idea. They already know what they want. And that’s really, really good thing. What you don’t want to do is say to yourself, no one’s ever done this before. No one’s ever thought about this before. I, that is a harmful thing. And when I’ve done that, I usually don’t, you know, succeed. What I want to do is say, well, here’s look at that. Look what someone did. That’s interesting. But I can do it better. Because you don’t want to you know, originality is great. But if you remember that the old Hertz and Avis thing you want to, you really want to be number two, you don’t, let somebody else be number one, and just make it better. So, if you have an idea for something, you’re, it’s probably something you’ve seen before. Personally, I like to synthesize things. So I see well, here’s, here’s a website that does this. That’s kind of interesting. Well, I’ll tell you the genesis of Between Sessions. The first I was in the I did a lot of workbooks. And I had a company called Instant Help Presses before Kindle. And we just did PDFs on workbooks for counselors on Tourette Syndrome, or things that counselors may not know about. And the idea was, you’ve got a kid coming into your office, with Tourette Syndrome, you’ve never treated that before. Well, you can go online, download the PDF and have tools to work with that child. And then I sold that company to new Harbinger publications. And they did a much, much better job then I could ever done. Because they’re, they’re, you know, really great publishers. And then years later, I said, Well, you know that it’s great having all these workbooks, but they’re, you know, get expensive. You know, all the sudden you’ve got a bookshelf full of workbooks. And I said, Well, what if there were just the workbooks were 40 activities. And I said, Well, what if there were just just the activities? And what if I could take all these work now, another company was Child’s Work. And we had done a lot of activity books through them. And I went to them and said, Well, can I take your books and chop them up and make individual worksheets instead of workbooks. And that was the genesis of Between Sessions. So we were able to open a membership site, instead of buying 50 books or whatever number of books, you just go on the site, pay a monthly fee, and then download a worksheet at a time instead of having to go to your library and find the workbook and copy the worksheet and get it to your client. So that’s an example of taking two different ideas, you know, workbook membership sites, and then making something new. That’s that’s the kind of business that I encourage people to go to. Because those are already successful businesses. So so there ways to leverage success. And I think usually, that’s by looking at what’s worked in the past, particularly if you’re new to being an entrepreneur. You know, you’re, there’s just not much new under the sun. And you’re probably not going to invent something that nobody’s ever seen before. So find things that have been successful and make them better. What you do know, I started out, I said, my catalog company was a game company. This is back before the internet. And in Philadelphia, we had a bookstore called the How to do It bookstore. So I wanted to start a catalog. So I went and bought a book that said, How to Start a catalog. I read the book, I did exactly what they said, Why would I do what I think because they knew what to do. And there I had a catalog and it was you know, successful. And every time I did something, I went to the How to do It bookstore, got a book on, you know how to start up how to start a magazine had a whatever, what it was, and of course, now we have the internet, we don’t have to go very far to find out. Somebody will tell you how to do it. Listen to what they say. They they’ve done it. So…
Katie Vernoy 18:30
Yeah.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 18:31
You know, find, find that way and follow the recipe that’s been successful for someone else.
Katie Vernoy 18:37
Yeah, I like that. Because it’s, it’s, I’m still gonna say people are creating something a little bit new. It’s kind of this incremental innovation. It’s finding something that’s worked, and then solving the next problem for it. Because it to me, it seems like when we’re looking at workbooks, I think that makes sense. Like, I don’t want a whole workbook. I want to worksheet. You know, and so being able to say, how do I solve that? And then how do I take other things that have worked to help solve that effectively? And to me that makes entrepreneurship feel a little less daunting. I don’t have to, to be in a completely blue ocean. For example, I can actually just kind of incrementally solve problems that are coming up as things that are successful, maybe don’t outlive their purpose, but also aren’t completely solving the problem they initially solved as things moved on. I’m thinking about going to marketing, but Curt has a very thoughtful face on so did you have a question?
Curt Widhalm 19:32
I’m kind of interested in this process of you’ve started several different ideas and different things, you’ve sold things off. I think that there’s a lot of people who are very passionate about things. They see this avenue towards, you know, I’m going to create this book or this course or things around a certain clinical population that seems to be their life calling. Wondering about this process of like, I’m going to invest a bunch of time and energy in this and then I’m going to just give that away for a chunk of money and then kind of start with something new. And kind of looking from your experience of finding new inspiration and new creativity that happens seemingly every few years for you, and how you go through that emotional process of not being so attached to an idea that you can get as part of your business and still be able to succeed and move on.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 20:27
Yeah, you know, I think we have to know what your strength is. For me, it is in that, you know, creative process, where I can say, Okay, here’s, well, I’ll tell you an idea I’m working on right now. All therapists, of course, are doing zoom and using our between sessions, products, which is great, but one clear gap in the market are play therapists. And that, of course, is my background. And I say to myself, If only there was a virtual play therapy room. If you could go to an app or a website, and you could look at the person, but play a game, or do the kind of thing; a doll play or do a drawing. And we hear all the time that there’s just nothing like that. And it’s a clear problem that needs to be solved. So I’ve identified the problem, then I’m going to look at who does something similar. And I found who those people are, and I don’t know, I think I can do better than they are. And that’s that’s where my strength is, is being able to, you know, see something new saying here, here’s something that fits in the market, then when it, now, so now we’ve got software that has to get made, could be computer software, or an app or whatever. That’s fun. But then my personal my interest goes down from there, I liked the first part. I love here’s a great idea. I know how to do it, maybe I’ll draw it, even do a wireframe, which is a blueprint of how an app might work. And then all the rest of it, you have to do it. But that’s, you know, my strength is in the first part. So when it comes to if someone said to me, Well, that’s a great idea, I’d like to do it, I said, Okay, well, why don’t you do it, and I’ll partner with you. Someone else might be more in that, you know, execution of it, you know, in terms of the programming or, or designing that program, some people are really good at that. Some people may be in the sales and the marketing. I can do all those things but what I love is the first part. Probably most people are like me. So you have to know you know what you’re good at. I always encourage people to look for partners. Because if you have a partner, then they’ve got another skill set. And if you’ve got two partners. And then now you’ve got three people with three different skill sets. And if you’re running a business, you probably need five different skill sets. So either you are going to have all five, or you’re going to deal with people, but you’re going to have to get all five one way or the other, to have a real ongoing business and, you know, not have people call you in the middle of the night to complain about their kids.
Katie Vernoy 22:55
They still may.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 22:57
No, they actually got the wrong number if they’re calling me.
Katie Vernoy 23:04
Yeah, I think that’s interesting. I think I go back and forth on whether I’m most interested in kind of the visionary creative process or the implementation and kind of actually bringing something into fruition. I think I, I go between the two. But it is an exciting process, that initial stage. And to me, you know, kind of getting actually through to implementation, I think a lot of people spend a lot of energy, time, money just getting to that implementation. And it really isn’t done there. Because there’s the the need to market to kind of grow that. You know, we don’t necessarily need to go deep into we do have other episodes on marketing. But I would just love to hear your perspective on kind of marketing a product or service that you’ve created after you’ve kind of got through the blood, sweat and tears of this creativity and then implementation.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 23:56
Yeah, well, I see marketing, and anyone will pretty much tell you the same thing; is about building your platform. Platform being an audience. You know, when I published my first book with HarperCollins, and they had a lot of people I could choose from but I was lecturing. So I was talking to 7,000 therapists a year. And they said, that’s great. We can sell 7,000 books. Same thing is true today, whether it’s Facebook followers, whether it’s people in your email list. When you’ve built that platform, you then it’s easy to market. My own prejudice, and I think prejudice towards most people is email marketing. It’s for for the time you spend and the results you get, I think pretty much anyone will tell you the same thing. That’s the way to go. So that that’s the list. You’re going to build a list we now have about 100,000 therapists that we email every single week. Obviously, they all don’t open it, but many do. And and that’s how we would market is called down the funnel. The funnel which is, you know, the top of the funnel of people who’ve never heard of you, you get them into the funnel, so they’re following you on Facebook, or they’re or they’ve signed up for your email. And then you bring them down over time by giving them value added content, usually. And finally, a single, you know, this guy’s good and his company’s looks like it’s interesting and the price isn’t too bad. I’ll give it a try. And then that’s, that’s what all marketing is.
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Curt Widhalm 25:25
I want to jump on that point of the value added piece. And when Katie had first started talking with Between Sessions about becoming a sponsor for the show, here and about Lawrence coming onto the show, and she’s like, Have you ever heard of Between Sessions before? And I’m like, Yeah, I’ve been on their email list for years like this is, I get added to everybody’s email list. Katie makes fun of me. I think on my, my iPhone here my unread emails is up near 150,000 right now.
Katie Vernoy 25:58
Oh, my gosh.
Curt Widhalm 25:59
But the ones that I do choose to open are the ones that seemingly add value to me or my practice. And Lawrence has done this for decades now and really knows kind of what’s what’s out there for the market that he has. So it’s not just accumulating numbers, but it’s accumulating good content for the numbers that you have, and really being able to speak into the market that you have. So it’s not just a matter of marketing, it’s being effective with it.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 26:29
Yes, of course, you know. And, and marketing is about metrics, about data. So if we send out, you know, 50,000 emails, and we get a 4%, open rate, that’s terrible. Because, nobody’s really, you know. The industry average is probably 16%. So then that’s good. If I can get 16% of the people that open my email, we we can get 20, 30 or even 40%. Now I’m doing something right. But content, which is that’s is called Content Marketing, you’re giving people something on a regular basis, that’s valuable to them. It could be could be a podcast, it could be in our case, it’s worksheets. It could be you know, infographics is, you know, different kinds of content. But people like free stuff. So you know, if you give people free stuff that has value, they appreciate it. And that’s, they’re going to be your, follow you. They’re going to get interested in your company, they’re going to know your name. And that’s what that’s what’s called Content Marketing. Which is a very, you hear that an awful lot. You’ve got to give people and again, when I talk to people with a new idea, the idea is fine. You know, I’ve built a better mousetrap. That’s great. But how are you going to get people to learn about, you know, we know from marketing, that you’ve got to hear about it six to eight times before you even think about purchasing something. So how do you get that audience? And how do you keep them engaged in what you’re doing? And that’s, that’s, that’s the job. That’s what marketing is about. You know, you, you may have a great mousetrap, but until people know why it is and want to, you know, get involved in it that doesn’t really matter.
Katie Vernoy 28:10
If you said a couple of different times, or maybe even more than that, that there is a lot of folks that are talking to you. And one of the things you said, I think the first conversation we had was, was it a goldfish tank?
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 28:25
Yeah.
Katie Vernoy 28:26
So I would love to let others in on what you’re talking about. Because I love this idea. And I think it’s such a helpful idea for, you know, especially our modern therapists who are, you know, they’re, they’re creative, they’re entrepreneurial minded, and they’re kind of all over the place, some of them.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 28:43
Well, the gold fish tank is me. And I’m…
Katie Vernoy 28:48
In reference to Shark Tank.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 28:51
You know, you know, Shark Tank is Mark Cuban and billionaires. This is money to invest. This is just, you know, a psychologist giving you advice from a business perspective. And I’m happy to do it. I talk to people every week, and they tell me what their ideas are. And I give them the best opinion I can as to what the, and help if possible. For example, if someone came to me and said, I have a finished product, and I thought this is a great and people need know, but we’d put them on our newsletter, we’d get that up to 100,000 people. So we can, and there’s no cost, we just do it for the sake of doing something good in the world. Like, I think most of mental health professionals do. So it’s just giving people feedback, and I, you know, I have plenty of opinions. They’re not always right. But I can tell you, as I said, you know, books are great, you probably won’t retire on it. Don’t do an app, because that’s not a good idea. Why you probably wouldn’t… an app. You know, I was so excited when people started making mobile apps because this is going to change everything. You’re gonna have something in your pocket that’s going to help you but the economy of an app, a book might cost you, maybe $1,000, to you got to write it, but then to produce it, maybe $2,000. An app is going to cost you $20,000, $50,000. A book is going to sell for $20. And app is going to sell for $3. So the economics are just wrong. Well, you’re gonna invest all this money in a product that is not going to sell for very much. And the odds of you succeeding are very, very low. Books on the other hand, you know, if you invest a couple $1,000, you’ll absolutely get that money back. You know, even, you know, either maybe sales of the book, but at least, and again, as a stepping stone to something else.
Curt Widhalm 30:42
I’m gonna ask about kind of the relationships that businesses have with each other. And especially as we see, more and more of these kind of affiliate programs develop. And this is something that I think other industries have utilized a lot better than kind of in this mental health space so far, but with Between Sessions resources, how do you develop some of these affiliate resources? What are some of the things that you look for, for those audience members who are looking to make that next step up and leverage some of their relationships with other companies? What are something that established company, like, Between Sessions looks for when we’re talking about developing relationships?
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 31:28
Yeah, well, you know, first of all, you’ve got to know if someone comes to us and says, We’ve got a great idea for your blog, we’re not a blog. So, I can’t help you.
Curt Widhalm 31:41
Know who you’re talking to.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 31:42
Yeah. Know, who you’re talking to, and what they want. Now, somebody says, I’ve got a ebook that you might be interested in promoting, or worksheets I’d like you to look at, that’s what we do. So you know, and, by the way, I’m in the same boat, we’re still a pretty little fish. So I’ll go to bigger companies, like BetterHelp, for example, which is, of course, a huge online therapy business and, and they have 1000s of therapists providing services to 10s and hundreds of 1000s of people. And I put like to BetterHelp say, why don’t you give them therapeutic homework, that’s what I do. And let’s talk about how we can work together. Well, about 100 emails later, I still haven’t heard back from BetterHelp. But that doesn’t stop me. So you know, you may, believe me, if you write me out, at least I’ll write you back. Even if I say we we’re not a blog. But you’ve so you need persistence. And most of all, you need to, you need to know what they want. Generally speaking, you know, organizations that they they develop the things internally route, rarely do they someone, they get an email or phone call and say, God, I never thought of that. That’s wonderful. That just doesn’t happen too much. But, but be persistent, reach out, but understand them. That they’re there, it’s not their job to understand you, it’s your job to understand them. And if you can help them with their business, that’s, of course, what they want to hear.
Katie Vernoy 33:14
I think that’s so important. Kind of that mutual benefit is, is very, very important. And I, we get so many people wanting to do all of these things for us that either we’ve already done or have nothing to do with us. And I think that’s, that’s really, really interesting that that’s, you know, that there’s this huge amount of time spent reaching out to folks without really understanding their business, or what would be beneficial to them that would actually get them to the table with you.
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 33:43
Yeah, you have to you have to, you know, if you have good a good idea, then definitely look for partners. There’s that’s a great thing to do. But it’s got to be value added to them as well as as to you. And I always say don’t fall in love with your product. That’s the first thing I tell people. And then of course, I always fall in love with my product and never. It’s like something don’t fall in love with your, you know, a pretty you know, whoever you’re in love with. That’s who you’re in love with. So your children don’t fall in love with your children. Like once you fall in love with your children, they get children. Same thing with that. But that being said, don’t fall in love with your product. Because…
Katie Vernoy 34:22
Now I want to ask the question, Why why don’t you fall in love with your product?
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 34:25
Well, you shouldn’t. I always do. But because you become a you: love is love. Love is blind. And you say this is you know, this is great. And what people do is they say I’ve, I’ve made this game. I’ve I’ve probably seen 500 games and people say you know, I took it to my family. They love the game. Of course they love the game that your family or I took it to this classroom and the kids went crazy. Well, of course because they weren’t doing their math, they loved they much rather play your game. So people fall in love and then they lose all perspective and then they go find other people who will support their infatuation. And and you’ve gotta just be, you know, at some point. And usually that point is, you know, when you’ve got to pay a bill that you don’t have the money to pay, then people say, Well, is this really a good idea? How come people don’t love it the way I love it? Because they don’t. But you have to be a business is business and business, you know, is a data driven and follow you know, what the data is and follow with the economics are. And that’s how you create a business. It’s wonderful to, you know, you can fall in love with your art. Art’s great. You can do a painting or a sculpture and fall in love with that. You know, that’s, that’s, that’s just an aesthetic choice. Or fall in love with a hobby. But business is business and yeah, and you have to at the end of the day, you’ll have to follow the the rules and laws of business if you’re going to be successful. But nothing wrong. You can be in love. Just understand, you know, love is blind.
Curt Widhalm 36:01
Our guest today is Dr. Lawrence Shapiro. Where can people find out more about you and all of your projects and workings?
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro 36:12
Sure, they can go to betweensessions.com. Of course, they can email me at drlawrenceshapiro @ google.com. Those are probably the best ways. They can go to Amazon, find me on Amazon, if they’re looking for books, particularly in child area. But I’m always happy to answer emails and help people in any way I can.
Curt Widhalm 36:35
And we’ll include links to those in our show notes. You can find those at mtsgpodcast.com. And please come over and join our Facebook group. That’s the Modern Therapists Group, like us on our social media. And until next time, I’m Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Dr. Lawrence Shapiro.
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